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Oak244
04-06-2006, 06:26 PM
So has anyone been able to test many of the high end speakers out there? I do not have any high end speaker dealers local so I have to depend on others suggestions. I will be running a 4 amp system so I will not need passive crossovers. This could allow me to mix an match companies if needed. Basically I am wondering if I need an upgrade before my install begins. I will have a Tweeter, Mid, Midbass and a sub layout planned. I currently have the First version of the CDT Eurosport 5.25 set. I will be using a CDT-EF8 8" midbass woofer in the doors. I will be putting the mid and tweet in the kick panels.

So any ideas on a smooth sounding mid and tweet for my system?

I ask because I already want to change the tweeters as one of mine is broken, so really all I have left to get is a woofer. And like I say, since I have an active crossover network and 4 US-Amp amplifiers, I do not need the passive crossovers. I also am not sure I need a 5.25 woofer for mids if I have an 8" in the doors for midbass. I listen to a lot of Jazz/Classical/Folk type music, so I am looking for a speaker with excellent detail without ear piercing highs. I typically use Silk tweeters in my installs.

The equipment I have now should be listed below. Of course if you think what I have is fine say so. Thanks!

Colin+M
04-06-2006, 07:25 PM
well I don't think you can beat the SEAS Lotus reference mid, most will agree with that. Plenty of tweets will fit the bill for you. I have only tried the Lotus ref fabrics, so i can't tell you that much.

alphakenny1
04-06-2006, 10:19 PM
colin i just purchased the seas lotus reference aluminum tweets :). and might i tell you they are awesome. they are like my LPG 25NFA but on steroids. i love the being able to cross these low. it has widened my stage. also these things are as detailed as you can get. very smoothe. not harsh at all. love them and would recommend them.

also what is your budget?

azbass
04-06-2006, 10:21 PM
well I don't think you can beat the SEAS Lotus reference mid, most will agree with that. .

i do not agree

Oak244
04-06-2006, 11:43 PM
Budget is unlimited... well without going too insane. Consider my current set was $599.99 which will give some idea what kind of stuff I am used to using.

Jaredl
04-06-2006, 11:54 PM
Running active with a good budget I'd probably look at a Seas or Scanspeak midbass. The L22 Seas will play extremely low and sound great. If you really don't mind spending money, the W22EX Seas will be a bit better than the L22s and have about the lowest distortion and most detail that you will find. A Scanspeak Revelator 7" would also be great as a midbass, but is even more expensive than those. I'd say get the Seas L22 for midbass, as they should be plenty and are $150ish for a pair.

For a midrange, the Scanspeak 4" Revelator is considered about as good as it gets if you have the space for a 4". You could also get a 4" Seas Excel but it won't play as high as the Revelator. A pair of Revelator midranges will be $430, the Seas would probably be $275-$350. If you really want to go crazy into the more esoteric brands, ATC dome midranges are about $1,000 a pair.

In terms of tweeters, a large format dome such as a Seas millenium or one of the very high-end Scanspeaks would be great. If you want to try something different, and have a big budget, a pair of Aurum Cantus G1s would be incredible (but $1,000 for the pair and BIG - you could get by with a 2-way with these, though).

Oak244
04-07-2006, 12:12 AM
Hmm Well lets look at it this way. I enjoy the sound of my speakers now, so justifying $1,000 is a bit much. I can not justify a sound increase worth $1,000. Right now I have CDT 8" woofers for midbass which I will build custom fiberglass enclosures on my doors. Then the midrange and tweeter will be custom installed in the kick panels of my car in custom fiberglass as well. So technically I can install any size speaker that will fit in the kicks. While I have an automatic trans, I have space as well with no clutch pedal to worry about. However at the same time I do not want to intrude too much and kill the foot space. I was thinking a 1" tweet and 4" midrange in the kicks, 8" in the doors and a 12" Stereo Integirty sub in the trunk.

Jaredl
04-07-2006, 12:38 AM
Well, for a 4" mid the Scanspeak is the one to get if you have the cash. At $430 a pair, they are pricy. The ATCs are HUGE so that's not really something to consider. Depending how high you want the mid to play, you could get a Seas Excel or Lotus mid. In terms of tweeters, Seas Reference is probably really good bang for the buck and it can play low so you could get the cheaper Seas mids. This is of course if you want high end, you could easily get great sound from cheaper drivers.

Oak244
04-07-2006, 01:48 AM
Well to help you understand my intentions... I listen to a lot of music with instruments that play from very low ranges to very high. I am not a hip hop listener, where a set of subs in the rear make a system sound awesome. Instead, my music is very dynamic, and I can not stand when I hear the top end of the instrument comming from the front, an the bottom end comming from the sub. However to cross the subs at say 50-60 Hz, and expect my midranges to pick up, just does not do the music justice. This is why I want a midbass driver up front, to get all the piano, and wood wind instruments up front with the rest. That way I can run my sub very low, so only the what needs to comes out of it. After reading a little... I wonder if my weakest point may be my CDT Midbass drivers. I have not hooked them up yet, but it sounds like the SEAS 7" driver is well reviewed. I am wondering if an entire front end revamp is in order! lol

Does a SEAS Tweet, Scanspeak 4" and SEAS 7" sound good? Or would all SEAS be plenty good?

What I was kinda told was this... Using all US Amps stats
Sub 0-60Hz 900 Watts
Midbass 60-500 Hz 150 Watts
Midrange 350-1.6khz 100 Watts
Tweets 1.4khz-20khz 50 Watts

Something like that

alphakenny1
04-07-2006, 01:49 AM
which seas though? there a lot of seas speakers. i mean theres A LOT. lol. also to learn more about these speakers sign up diymobileaudio.com.

Oak244
04-07-2006, 01:54 AM
lol Yeah I just realized SEAS and Scanspeak both have lots of speakers. Basically I will need more help here on which ones to consider.

alphakenny1
04-07-2006, 01:58 AM
yea like i said do some reading at diymobileaudio about both of those companies. theres a lot of information regarding those companies at that site. but so far i got my seas lotus reference tweets in and they are awesome. can play very low. i have them crossed at 2khz @ 24db but can easily play at 1.6 khz.

btw, nice amps man!

Jaredl
04-07-2006, 02:07 AM
If you just want to run a 7" as a midbass, the L18 is probably best simply because of the cost. I have W18NXs which I haven't gotten a chance to install yet, which are from the Excel line. They are the newer Seas mids and are often regarded as their best yet, but I'm not sure there's a real reason to use them as a pure midbass when the L18s are so much cheaper for similar performance. If you have the room, the 5.5" Seas Nextel mids would be very nice, and are not much more than half the cost of the Scanspeaks.

Oak244
04-07-2006, 02:18 AM
Like I say, I have as much room as I am willing to loose in footspace :-) If a 5.5 driver is needed, I can use one. I mean my original intention was to put my 5.25 CDT driver in there. I just thought since I was using a dedicated woofer for midbass, maybe a 4" could sound better and take up less space. It was just a thought.

Well this month I have to pay taxes :-( and really I need the weather to get a little warmer to start the fiberglass projects. So I have time to study this and make a decision. I am looking at that site you gave me. Thanks, yes there is tons of info there.

Keep the ideas a commin! The more opinions I get the better judgement I can make in the long run. Like said, there seems to be many different speakers offered by these companies, so specific woofer and tweeter names will help :-)

Oh and ty for the amp comment. Some from these sites turned me on to US Amps, and oh my do I love them! I first tried the little 50 to test one and it blew away all other similar amps bar none! I was instantly sold!

thadman
05-22-2006, 11:16 PM
the perfect 3-way for me would be

dedicated midbass (Peerless XLS 8s) $150 @ solen.ca (10mm+ xmax...)

dedicated midrange (Peerless Exclusive 4.5/5.5 (if you've got the room) 8ohm
Dayton Reference 5" RS125 4ohm (cheap, sound great, and are 4 ohm)
Scanspeak Revelator 4.5... if you're rolling in the $$$

dedicated tweeter (LCY 108s) without a doubt the best tweeter suited for kickpanels and the car environment. They have amazing on and off-axis response (flat to 10khz @ 60* and +/- 5dB to 20khz @ 60*)... they'll cost you a pretty penny though
You can pick them up off solen.ca or speaking with npdang at diymobileaudio could save you a few bucks on those ($350 maybe less for a pair if you know the right people)

perfect 2-way would be

Seas Excel W18NX 7" Nextel $154 each
LCY 108s

thadman
05-22-2006, 11:17 PM
lol....sorry for bringing back an old thread

didnt realize it was from April

Oak244
05-22-2006, 11:34 PM
Its ok, I still have not got to the project, so still listening! :-)

FoxPro5
05-23-2006, 12:01 AM
i do not agree

I don't agree with you not agreeing, but, in general, you're right :)

To the original poster: sounds like you need some mad processing. What did you have planned??

Jaredl
05-23-2006, 12:08 AM
the perfect 3-way for me would be

dedicated midbass (Peerless XLS 8s) $150 @ solen.ca (10mm+ xmax...)

dedicated midrange (Peerless Exclusive 4.5/5.5 (if you've got the room) 8ohm
Dayton Reference 5" RS125 4ohm (cheap, sound great, and are 4 ohm)
Scanspeak Revelator 4.5... if you're rolling in the $$$

dedicated tweeter (LCY 108s) without a doubt the best tweeter suited for kickpanels and the car environment. They have amazing on and off-axis response (flat to 10khz @ 60* and +/- 5dB to 20khz @ 60*)... they'll cost you a pretty penny though
You can pick them up off solen.ca or speaking with npdang at diymobileaudio could save you a few bucks on those ($350 maybe less for a pair if you know the right people)

perfect 2-way would be

Seas Excel W18NX 7" Nextel $154 each
LCY 108s

The LCYs are not necessarily ideal for kick panel mounting. Their increased vertical dispersion will result in reflections under the dash. Consequently, traditional ribbons such as Aurum Cantus, Raven, or Fountek could work better in kick panels if you can aim them right (I have Aurum Cantus G3Sis I'm building kicks for right now and it's a real pain in the *** to get them aimed really well - if I had more fabrication skill and a bigger budget I'd love to build motorized kicks like Scott Buwalda) and don't mind rolled off highs in the back seats. Both of your recommendations would sound amazing given the right tuning, though.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 12:17 AM
Yes this is where I am getting stuck.... In peoples reviews, and all the installs of late in the Car Audio Mags, show the tweeters back up on the A pillars. I guess the kick pannels is not the optimum placement anymore? The problem my car has, is the A pillar has a vent right under it, aimed at the side windows to defrost them. So putting a large Ribbon tweeter up there is not optimal. I was looking into the BG Neo3 ribbon.

That being said, I could do a small traditional tweeter in a custom housing on the Pillar if needed, and put only the Mid driver in the kick, and the Midbass in the door.

If the tweeter in more then 1" or so, it will either have to go high on the door, or in the kick pannels. I think I am set of the Peerless Midbass driver, still not sure on the mid, untill I have the tweeter figured out, as I find the tweeter being very important.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 12:19 AM
I don't agree with you not agreeing, but, in general, you're right :)

To the original poster: sounds like you need some mad processing. What did you have planned??

And if you talking to me, I have an Eclipse 8053 that has a lot of tweaking controls. But I was also thinking of possibly getting some EQ's like EQT's or something if needed.

FoxPro5
05-23-2006, 12:28 AM
And if you talking to me, I have an Eclipse 8053 that has a lot of tweaking controls. But I was also thinking of possibly getting some EQ's like EQT's or something if needed.

Right, but aren't you wanting to run 3 way up front with a sub (ie. 7 channels of amplification)? That would require either an electronic x-over or the splitting of one of your preouts off the 8053, wouldn't it? I have the same HU and I'm in the same predicament. Thus my asking you what you had planned?

Oak244
05-23-2006, 12:41 AM
Yes I plan on a US Amp 3 way crossover that will split the Mid bass from the Midrange, comming out of the 8053's midrange crossover output. I am not positive on the US Amps, but thought since I have all US Amps I might as well.

FoxPro5
05-23-2006, 01:00 AM
Yes I plan on a US Amp 3 way crossover that will split the Mid bass from the Midrange, comming out of the 8053's midrange crossover output. I am not positive on the US Amps, but thought since I have all US Amps I might as well.

Sounds good...keep it in the USA :patrioti:

Echo42987
05-23-2006, 01:01 AM
Where is Hebrew Hammer!

He has used every EXTREMLEY HIGH END audio speaker out there....Like Gensis, Rainbow Plats, Focal BE etc.

I've covered the majority of well known brands high ends....

Boston Acoustic Z6
JL Audio ZR
Polk SR6500
Focal 165K2P
Diamond Audio D9
Kicker SS

I think thats all I've ever gotten ahold of

My favorites of all of those have to be the BA's and the Focal....even though the D9's where extremley impressive!

-Nick-

Oak244
05-23-2006, 01:14 AM
Well when I originally got my CDT's it all came to what kind of music you liked. CDT's at the time were best suited for my kind of music, where the Boston Z's were for more rock and metal listeners. I listen to Classical/Jazz/Folk type music, so most of the music is very dynamic, and has many instruments playing at once across the whole audio spectrum. This makes designing the best audio set-up even more difficult, and the reason I am wanting a 3way front stage and sub. I want as much of the sound up front as possible, so that my sub only has to play 50-60 Hz and down.

Jaredl
05-23-2006, 01:58 AM
If you're using very high end speakers the stock locations probably won't do them justice. A pillar installs allow you to get good stage height easily, but are harder to image due to smaller pathlengths and tons of reflections. Kick panels will give you longer pathlengths to improve imaging, but will be harder to get a good stage height. If you're doing a 3-way, I'd be wary of putting a huge ribbon in your car. My Aurum Cantus G3Sis are almost 6" tall, and once you add baffles the kickpanels for just tweeters get BIG. Basically, true ribbons will be bigger than the midranges you're looking at. If you've got a lot of cash, Aurum Cantus G1s ($500 each - but they play pretty low and are supposed to be incredible) and Seas Excel or Scanspeak Revelator mids would be an amazing two-way. The BG Neo3s are supposed to sound almost as good as true ribbons in a car, so that would be an option to save space and money if you really want a 3-way.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 02:17 AM
Well How does this sound...

1) Neo3 and Scanspeak Rev in the kick pannels, with the Peerless XLS 8" in the doors

2) LPG25 in the A pillar Scanspeak Rev in the kick, Peerless in the door

3) LPG in the Pillar, and the Kick with SEAS in the kicks Peerless in the doors.

4) Usher 9950c and Seas or Scanspeak in the kicks with Peerless in the doors.

Any of these combos sound good? BTW this setup is going in a 1991 Geo Prism/1991 Toyota Corolla.

Jaredl
05-23-2006, 02:48 AM
Well How does this sound...

1) Neo3 and Scanspeak Rev in the kick pannels, with the Peerless XLS 8" in the doors

2) LPG25 in the A pillar Scanspeak Rev in the kick, Peerless in the door

3) LPG in the Pillar, and the Kick with SEAS in the kicks Peerless in the doors.

4) Usher 9950c and Seas or Scanspeak in the kicks with Peerless in the doors.

Any of these combos sound good? BTW this setup is going in a 1991 Geo Prism/1991 Toyota Corolla.
They'll probably all sound great. I would try to hear the Seas and Scanspeak mids as it will be a matter of taste. The Seas will be incredibly revealing to the point of being unforgiving of bad recordings, but the Scanspeak will also be very detailed. They're both in the top echelon of drivers. I'd definitely go for the Peerless, they're supposed to be incredible midbass drivers. The tweeters will also be a matter of choice, but I haven't heard anything bad about any of those. I don't know why you'd put the large-format Usher in a 3-way, though.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 03:16 AM
Just said Usher because I could squeeze it in the kick panel I am sure, and the review sounded good. I will need a little help with which model to get as far as the Seas and Scanspeak are concerned as they seem to have multiple numbers for each size, and I do not know what the difference mean.

What do you think of doing 4 tweeters? Is there any bad thing about doing this? All I can see is it would reduce the blocking of legs and such with the tweeters being in the kicks. But what about there now being 4 different pathlengths instead of dealing with only 2?

Lastly, If you have an 8" in your door, is it necessary to still get the largest woofer in the kicks as possible for the midrange sound? I was going to go with a 4" driver for space reasons but of course I could easily go with a 5.5 or even a 6.5 especially if I put the tweets up high.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 03:42 AM
Well I just bought 2 BG Neo3's after reading everything in the review on it. Everyone that has used it, has never put their old tweeters back in, and the ones they replaced it with, were other tweeters I was considering. Needless to say, I will be better able to see the install possibilities once I have the tweeters in my hands and can test them. So Now I need to find the Peerless XLS woofers and decide on the midrange. To be honest, since I listen to a lot of live CD's I think maybe the Seas speaker will be better suited. So now I need to know if I should use the Nextel woofer or Magnesium woofer, and what size?

Jaredl
05-23-2006, 04:06 AM
I replied over at DIYMA...bigger is better but I'd try to keep the tweeter and mid together to have a single point source. I don't think I'd do 4 tweeters, that just gets really complicated.

3.5Max6spd
05-23-2006, 07:59 AM
They'll probably all sound great. I would try to hear the Seas and Scanspeak mids as it will be a matter of taste. The Seas will be incredibly revealing to the point of being unforgiving of bad recordings, but the Scanspeak will also be very detailed. They're both in the top echelon of drivers. I'd definitely go for the Peerless, they're supposed to be incredible midbass drivers. The tweeters will also be a matter of choice, but I haven't heard anything bad about any of those. I don't know why you'd put the large-format Usher in a 3-way, though.

Word is seal the Scan 4's, and there hardly could be a better midrange ...

Hayabusa
05-23-2006, 10:41 AM
Wait for a month or two... The Ologys will drop and slaughter the market...

FoxPro5
05-23-2006, 10:51 AM
Wait for a month or two... The Ologys will drop and slaughter the market...

:laugh: The famous last words of Ology: Hey, what happened?

Did you consider the Buwalda Legatia 3"?

Hebrew Hammer
05-23-2006, 12:07 PM
OK boys....spent a day recouping of SVR....

the best normal 4 hands down is the scan 4 ...the SEAS 4 in no way stacks up to it tonally nor has the range as the scan...now in my mind, they only two to trump the scan would either be the Audio Technology 4 or the ATC middome...

for 3's...the Focal 3w2 without hesitation...Ron Baker had his playing down to 150Hz and did if effortlessly with no sign of strain and no coloration...the Legatia 3 on the other hand, was one of the worst drivers I've listened to and that was after Steve Head spent many hours trying to fix it....before there were stock OEM drivers that sound better...very 2D and had major issues with playing complex passages...

Hebrew Hammer
05-23-2006, 12:08 PM
Also...this whole Xmax thing....I'll take tonal accuracy any day over xmax and IMO is moot point

Oak244
05-23-2006, 12:45 PM
Ok whats this about Ology's? I have never heard of it. I do not like the idea of putting this off another 2 months, but if its going to be totally worth it, I guess I could. So will these be better then the Revelator 4" and what kind of price are we looking at?

Hebrew Hammer
05-23-2006, 12:55 PM
taking nothing away from Ology....can't compare something with specs and claims...a side by side has to be done...and I was asked to beta test the drivers...can't wait to see how they will stack up

CAMSHAFT
05-23-2006, 01:16 PM
OK boys....spent a day recouping of SVR....

the best normal 4 hands down is the scan 4 ...the SEAS 4 in no way stacks up to it tonally nor has the range as the scan...now in my mind, they only two to trump the scan would either be the Audio Technology 4 or the ATC middome...

for 3's...the Focal 3w2 without hesitation...Ron Baker had his playing down to 150Hz and did if effortlessly with no sign of strain and no coloration...the Legatia 3 on the other hand, was one of the worst drivers I've listened to and that was after Steve Head spent many hours trying to fix it....before there were stock OEM drivers that sound better...very 2D and had major issues with playing complex passages...

:(

Oak244
05-23-2006, 01:46 PM
Well, I wonder how much better things can get.... like if Scan has the best 4" now, how much better could another speaker really get. I know many times, sound is a personal prefernce, but since testing out your own speakers is pratically impossible if you live on a budget, we must depend on the reviews of others.

Another thing I would like to see is a test done once a speaker has gone through its burn in process. Many times a speaker sounds different after 100's of hours on them then they did new. Typically I like the sound better after burn in.

Lastly, where can I get a 4" Revelator? Madisound only has the 5" and higher. Of course if the 5" or higher would sound better I would get them for the little difference in price.

Hebrew Hammer
05-23-2006, 02:58 PM
:(


Cam...buddy.....I am most happy that I got to meet you and your wife...you guys are awesome...I mean AWESOME people!!!!!.....which leaves even more of a bitter taste in my mouth for for Scott not only with his claims...but for what happened at finals last year..... I felt the exact same way about the red 240 so don't take it personal...stick with fazza and the crew and you'll have a bright future in IASCA...

3.5Max6spd
05-23-2006, 03:28 PM
Well, I wonder how much better things can get.... like if Scan has the best 4" now, how much better could another speaker really get. I know many times, sound is a personal prefernce, but since testing out your own speakers is pratically impossible if you live on a budget, we must depend on the reviews of others.

Another thing I would like to see is a test done once a speaker has gone through its burn in process. Many times a speaker sounds different after 100's of hours on them then they did new. Typically I like the sound better after burn in.

Lastly, where can I get a 4" Revelator? Madisound only has the 5" and higher. Of course if the 5" or higher would sound better I would get them for the little difference in price.

12M/4631G is what you should be looking at. And yes, Madisound does carry them.

Oak244
05-23-2006, 04:42 PM
Ok, I found those at Stolen.... But wow $220 a speaker? How much better could they sound over the SEAS Excell. I mean are they really worth the extra $100 a speaker?

Ohh just noticed the 4.5" comes with e NEO magnet, which is probably why the cost is so high.

Oak244
05-24-2006, 01:20 AM
Well its decided! Going with the Scanspeak 4.5" Neo driver! I just got one off ebay for half price, so I jumped on it. So looks like the pair will cost me $300 which was about the same for the SEAS so it was a no brainer. So the set-up looks like so...

BG Neo 3 Tweeters on a US Amps USA-50
Scanspeak 12/M4631G Revelator Midrange's Off and US Amps USA-400x
Peerless XLS 8" Woofer's off a US Amps USA-600x
Stereo Integrity D2 12" off a USa Amps USA-900x

I looked a little closer while driving today, and as long the the Neo 3 is not huge, I should be able to custom fit it in the A-Pillar if it will sound best there.

The 4" goes in the kicks for sure, and the 8" in the doors. The sub of course is in the trunk.

Let me know if the Peerless and Scanspeak are not a good combo. If not please inform me what to use. Thanks everyone!

alteraudiousa
05-24-2006, 01:51 AM
well i hpoe to be testing a set of Legatia 3's later this month so i'll tell you how they are. I'm redoing my setup to now have 2 pairs of ES-600 in each door, Legatia 3 in the kicks along with the drt-25's. Should be quite nice but i'll keep you up to date on the Legatia OAK.