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View Full Version : Turbo and supercharger



PESteele
03-26-2006, 08:24 PM
can u have both on a car at the same time

ballstothewall
03-26-2006, 09:54 PM
Seen it done on a WRX. Pretty sure I saw it on www.ls1tech.com.

ngsm13
03-26-2006, 09:56 PM
Yes. You can.

nG

trow100
03-26-2006, 09:58 PM
Yes

Trey803
03-26-2006, 11:08 PM
Sure why not but why not just use a bigger supercharger or twin turbo?

Eugenics
03-26-2006, 11:08 PM
seen it done to spool up big turbo's

Lunchbocks
03-27-2006, 04:35 AM
it has been done

if you wanna see some crazy forced induction engines check out some tractor pullers, i've definitely seen turbo/supercharger combined on one engine

only thing i've ever worked on with both was a detroit diesel 2 stroke that had a turbo atop a roots style blower but it wasnt really designed for the performance we all had in mind.

Alpine CDA-9815
03-27-2006, 08:58 PM
Anything is possible with money :)

vgeek
03-27-2006, 09:02 PM
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automotivetech/502459855fd27010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

VW's new twincharger, has a turbo and supercharger putting out over 150hp.

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Yes it can be done, but no it is not proactical for anyone other than those who can succesfully do it for a reasonable cause.

spitfirees20
03-28-2006, 04:20 PM
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automotivetech/502459855fd27010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

VW's new twincharger, has a turbo and supercharger putting out over 150hp.

Wow, 168 hp, 7.9 0-60.... it has a turbocharger and a supercharger, and it's still slow as ****. Way to go, VW. Sure, it gets 30 mpg city and 48 mpg highway, but with that much induction I'm sure that engine won't last long at all.

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 04:22 PM
Wow, 168 hp, 7.9 0-60.... it has a turbocharger and a supercharger, and it's still slow as ****. Way to go, VW. Sure, it gets 30 mpg city and 48 mpg highway, but with that much induction I'm sure that engine won't last long at all.

If it only has 168bhp, then there isn't much induction at all:laugh:

spitfirees20
03-28-2006, 04:28 PM
Well, it's only a 1.4, so there is a significant amount of induction to get 168 hp.

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 04:36 PM
Well, it's only a 1.4, so there is a significant amount of induction to get 168 hp.

:confused:

spitfirees20
03-28-2006, 04:38 PM
:confused:

1.4 liters is a very, very small amount of displacement for a naturally aspirated engine, so you will need plenty of induction to get up to 168 hp and 170+ lb/ft

Black_Jesus
03-28-2006, 05:25 PM
yea a 1.4 would have somethin like what? 80hp? lol

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 07:45 PM
I know how big it is, I am just used to people making that power on 1.5L Honduh's with minimal money spent, so I just can't see it being a significant amount of induction. And while I may easily be wrong, I don't think that the engineering of today allows for only a measly 80HP from a 1.4L. I mean cummon now, my 1.5L d15b7 in 1994 came out of the factory at ~98hp :P

heyman421
03-28-2006, 09:21 PM
You're talking about very different engines. To get ~98hp out of a 1.5 with natural aspiration, you'd just need to turn the engine over faster. Torque x RPMs gives you horsepower output.

VW's developed a 1.4 that has a 2,000rpm torque peak, and doesn't need to be revved higher than 5500-6000rpms to achieve full power. In short, a very torquey, driveable engine, that also achieves GREAT gas mileage when you're foot's off the pedal.

Vw's aim isn't to make the fastest cars on the block. That's why they have porsche, lamborghini, audi, and bugatti in the VW family.

And as for reliability, while german cars' may not have the best reputation as far as electrical system stability, vw engines are incredibly strong and well designed. Audi engineering is being used in the new 2.0t engines to run a full 14+psi of boost in an engine with over 11.0:1 compression! That's as high as a naturally aspirated engine. If they're planning on releasing an engine with both a supercharger and a turbo, you can believe they've put countless hours of research and development into it to make sure everything's been accounted for.

Trey803
03-28-2006, 09:27 PM
Ok a little random but i once saw somone on cardomain claim to have an eletric powered turbo charger?????? wtf in theory it sounds reasonable and maybe worth it but can this be........

Eugenics
03-28-2006, 09:29 PM
technically its AG group that owns them, not VW

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 09:30 PM
If they're planning on releasing an engine with both a supercharger and a turbo, you can believe they've put countless hours of research and development into it to make sure everything's been accounted for.

:clap: :thumbsup:

Was the point I was trying to get at. I know the workings of both NA and FI motors, and was giving them a hard time;)

RandyJ
03-28-2006, 09:31 PM
Ok a little random but i once saw somone on cardomain claim to have an eletric powered turbo charger?????? wtf in theory it sounds reasonable and maybe worth it but can this be........

Yes there are electric superchargers, from what I have read, they really do not work wel.l.

dubbinjet
03-29-2006, 06:49 PM
You're talking about very different engines. To get ~98hp out of a 1.5 with natural aspiration, you'd just need to turn the engine over faster. Torque x RPMs gives you horsepower output.

VW's developed a 1.4 that has a 2,000rpm torque peak, and doesn't need to be revved higher than 5500-6000rpms to achieve full power. In short, a very torquey, driveable engine, that also achieves GREAT gas mileage when you're foot's off the pedal.

Vw's aim isn't to make the fastest cars on the block. That's why they have porsche, lamborghini, audi, and bugatti in the VW family.

And as for reliability, while german cars' may not have the best reputation as far as electrical system stability, vw engines are incredibly strong and well designed. Audi engineering is being used in the new 2.0t engines to run a full 14+psi of boost in an engine with over 11.0:1 compression! That's as high as a naturally aspirated engine. If they're planning on releasing an engine with both a supercharger and a turbo, you can believe they've put countless hours of research and development into it to make sure everything's been accounted for.


I agree here, the SC is there at lower RPMs, giving you a very quick torquy car off the line and the Turbo is there for the higher RPMs when its needed. my buddy's GTS is quick as hell, but you need to rev that bi**h to 8 grand to get it goin. VW is making sure everything is well, with a manufacturer coming out with a twincharged motor from the factory, and great MPG, you cant really ask for more from them. there are always aftermarket parts to help you out on that one day if it ever comes to NA. like my 1.8T is stock only 150HP, but with a little engine manegment, I can peak at 16-17 PSI, and if i dont romp on the pedal still get ~26MPG mixed driving. you have to remember, just saying that it has both a turbo and a SC doesnt mean anything, its not like they are working simutaniously. (sp?)

vgeek
03-30-2006, 10:48 PM
Yes there are electric superchargers, from what I have read, they really do not work wel.l.

Yep, they're mentioned in the 'waste of money' thread at bonnevilleclub. The electric superchargers are just a drain on the electrical system without providing any real return on investment, just like the 'Tornado' devices, just a ploy to get your $50 and give you nothing but false hopes in return.

smd4life
03-30-2006, 10:53 PM
saw it on the meguires integra... a long time ago

RandyJ
03-31-2006, 01:46 AM
I agree here, the SC is there at lower RPMs, giving you a very quick torquy car off the line and the Turbo is there for the higher RPMs when its needed. my buddy's GTS is quick as hell, but you need to rev that bi**h to 8 grand to get it goin. VW is making sure everything is well, with a manufacturer coming out with a twincharged motor from the factory, and great MPG, you cant really ask for more from them. there are always aftermarket parts to help you out on that one day if it ever comes to NA. like my 1.8T is stock only 150HP, but with a little engine manegment, I can peak at 16-17 PSI, and if i dont romp on the pedal still get ~26MPG mixed driving. you have to remember, just saying that it has both a turbo and a SC doesnt mean anything, its not like they are working simutaniously. (sp?)

I may be drunk as hell, btu I still know well enough that if your buddies gts is only hitting boost at 8grand, then he is fredggin retarded for setting it up that way, unless he only wants a motor that sppools at 8grad. :rolleyes:

A turbo can be easily utilized for low rpm tourque, look at the cummins dielsels, as a matter a fact, look at a semi:cool:

dubbinjet
04-01-2006, 08:36 AM
i didnt say it was turbo'd...i was just making a comparison it is an NA motor, with crappy torque curve. and was saying how its fast on the highway, but not in the low RPMs, and VW is making sure that this car is solid in all aspects...sorry, i dont think i said it right...

RandyJ
04-01-2006, 05:13 PM
Must have thought you said spool up at 8grand. My bad :)

heyman421
04-02-2006, 01:51 AM
its not like they are working simutaniously. (sp?)


Yeah, the twin charger uses an electromagnetic clutch to disengage the supercharger once the turbo is spooled. It IS possible, tho, to do a twin charged motor that boosts with both, as long as you use a roots or screw-type positive displacement supercharger, opposed to a centripetal <sp> charger such as a vortec, which is basically a turbo with a pulley on it, rather than using exhaust to spin.

The nice thing about a positive displacement supercharger is that it's ALWAYS making boost. If there's a 5 lb. pulley on it, it's making 5 lbs of boost at idle to redline, and all air is inducted through the supercharger, no air can pass around the non-turning supercharger like it could through a non-spooled turbo, or a non-boosting centripetal charger, so if you've got a turbo hooked up to the positive displacement charger, and then to the engine, if the turbo spools 10 lbs, and the supercharger is making 5 lbs, the supercharger will actually compress the 10 lbs of boost from the turbo 5 more psi, and feed the engine 15 lbs. It's neat stuff.

If you're into vw's at all, there's actually a 20v 1.8 lump running compounded chargers like this, the thing looks absolutely terrifying, it's got 3" plumbing from the turbo to an intercooler, then to the screw-type supercharger, the to ANOTHER intercooler, and to the mani. It's really impressive, so say the least. Last i heard they were having some fuel management problems, but that was a while back, when i had enough cash flow to be interested in toys.

:naughty:

I'm not sure what steps they're taking to put the technology on gasoline engines again, but even cooler than compound boosting with a s/c and turbo is the variable geometry turbochargers they use on diesel engines, and used to use on the dodge daytona turbo. It can actually change the geometry of the fins that propel the exhaust flow at the compressor wheel to spin the turbo, so at low rpms, with minimal exhaust flow, the fins turn to a super aggresive angle, to spin the turbo up almost at idle, and then rather than using a wastegate like a conventional turbocharger, it uses a vacuum actuator to reduce the angle of the fins to slow the compressor wheel down, and keep the boost at the desired level! The vw tdi, along with most commercial diesel truck engines use this type of turbo, because it can make full boost well under 2000 rpms, and hold it till redline. In my jetta tdi, i could pin a 30psi boost gauge at 1200 rpms and hold it till redline, it has the great efficiency and super high boosting capability of a turbocharger, coupled with the instantaneous boost you used to only be able to get from a supercharger.

I read somewhere that the only reason they stopped using them no gasoline engines is that gasoline engines run so hot, that the variable geometry fins have a habit of seizing up and causing boost spikes, or just plain breaking, and diesel engines run at much lower EGT's, once someone finds a way to reliably put this technology on a gasoline engine, tho, the way people think about turbocharged cars is going to completely change, because you'll be able to put a turbo capable of tremendous amounts of boost, and still have it spool instantly, boost lag will not exist.

Just imagine putting a turbo the size of a t3/t4 on an si or a 1.8t, and having 20psi from 2 grand till redline! The technology's coming.

dubbinjet
04-02-2006, 09:52 AM
Just imagine putting a turbo the size of a t3/t4 on an si or a 1.8t, and having 20psi from 2 grand till redline! The technology's coming.

yea, i acually know a guy that went big turbo on his 1.8T...it was like 350whp and 370wtq...mighty fast, then he boosted the turbo too hard...lol. i think he replaced the turbo and is good to go now!