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IamDeMan
03-23-2006, 06:02 PM
OK the credit card is burned and I am committed with the woofer I am using in my IB HT sub. I have toyed around with using many different woofers and in the end PRICE was the motivator lol. The specs of the woofer are a bit off from optimum in the fs department and XMAX, but QTS and QMS are right on spot for a nice IB canidate. I eliminated XMAX being an issue by buying 8 of them :naughty:

8 15" drivers ought to give me the output necessary to bring the house down :yumyum: They will be powered by my Dayton 1000 watt plate amp. I will detail the install in this thread when they come in and I begin. :D

Hurrs the woofer I am taking. At $70 a pop I just don't see how this could be wrong, since at this price I can easily afford 8 to move some air.

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2264

mattmcss
03-23-2006, 07:22 PM
you're one crazy mofo, can't wait to see the pics !

joetama
03-24-2006, 05:14 PM
Agreed, I'm looking forward to those pics. That should kick some ***... Don't crack for foundation, I know a guy who did that.....

thylantyr
03-24-2006, 09:26 PM
Draw a sketch on how the install will look in the house :)

joetama
03-25-2006, 03:41 AM
LOL, I want to see shading too.... None of that just plain lines ****....

IamDeMan
03-26-2006, 01:24 PM
I can't sketch for ****, but let me dig up an example I will mimick instead ;)

IamDeMan
03-26-2006, 01:34 PM
I will be installing them in the attic and use a manifold through the ceiling similiar to this design. The only difference will be mine have 4 more drivers :up2somet: :D

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/ReadyForDrivers.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/CompletedView.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/IBoutlet2.jpg

ngsm13
03-26-2006, 01:51 PM
*******?

;)

nG

IamDeMan
03-29-2006, 08:16 PM
The first of many pictures to come. This is delivery day. Look at all those pretty woofs in a row. Looks intimidating already :up2somet:

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/mini_IMG_4504.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/mini_IMG_4507.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/mini_IMG_4508.jpg

thylantyr
03-30-2006, 12:02 AM
.................... more is always :toast: better ................................

imaspaceguy90
03-30-2006, 12:05 AM
thats a bunch of Rf's

imaspaceguy90
03-30-2006, 12:05 AM
thats a bunch of Rf's

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 09:53 AM
OK, here comes the head scratchin. I know I already said I was going to do a manifold design like exampled above, but I also have room to do a line array of them behind the plasma screen. I am not sure what acoustically is the safer bet. Which has the best chance of not having "dead spots" from cancellation issues?

Here is my room.

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/All-Done!/mini_House_013.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/All-Done!/mini_House_012.jpg

Floor plan

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/floorplan.jpg

Sketch of proposed Line array

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/linearraysketch.jpg

Sketch of manifold placement.

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/2stagemanifold.jpg

joetama
03-30-2006, 01:41 PM
How were you planning on mounting them in the manifold? If you do the line pattern are you planning on mounting them behind or above the TV?

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 02:08 PM
How were you planning on mounting them in the manifold? If you do the line pattern are you planning on mounting them behind or above the TV?
If manifold there is 2 ways. One would be like hot gluing 2 of these together, one on top of the other blowing through the ceiling.

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/CompletedView.jpg

Or making a long manifold with 2 rows of 4, basically like 2 4 driver line arrays in the manifold.

Or just mount the woofs above the TV in an 8 driver line array upside down.

joetama
03-30-2006, 02:31 PM
I would go with the 2 per side horizontally with the manifold personally, because otherwise you are going to be hacking up a lot of wall. The wall mount though would be more in your face, but either way you don't get much ground coupling so I would go manifold.

baseballer1100
03-30-2006, 02:33 PM
Thats going to be sick!!!

pd298
03-30-2006, 02:37 PM
No kidding. 8 15's in a house. Ive never heard of such a thing.

ssj2xxgotenxx
03-30-2006, 03:00 PM
Isn't that a bit excessive?! Overpowering?! Can the rest of your highs/lows keep up with all of that? Then agian, I guess it's very nessesary =)

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 03:13 PM
No kidding. 8 15's in a house. Ive never heard of such a thing.
Very common in the IB community of HT setups actually. Some use 8 avalanches. In an IB install output isn't all that great, because your driver will reach it's mechanical limits way before it reaches it's thermal limit. What you do get is really low extension though. So to make up for low output you just double or quadruple the drivers :D


Isn't that a bit excessive?! Overpowering?! Can the rest of your highs/lows keep up with all of that? Then agian, I guess it's very nessesary =)
The excessiveness is for dynamic transients of info below 20 hz in movies ;) I want to feel the movie proper. I will have 2 towers that contain 16 4" NSBs and 12 tweeters each in a line array, so when I do listen to music they should be able to keep up nicely with mids and highs.

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 03:15 PM
I would go with the 2 per side horizontally with the manifold personally, because otherwise you are going to be hacking up a lot of wall. The wall mount though would be more in your face, but either way you don't get much ground coupling so I would go manifold.
Yea, you have a point on the hacking. Plus it will be more wood and materials.

joetama
03-30-2006, 03:31 PM
Running all the wire inside the walls would be a bit of a *****, while if you do the IB setup you can put the amp up top and just run a small signal cable up there, plus there is much less signal loss then.

Plus mounting subs in sheet rock (which i'm assuming your wall is made out of) will crush the sheet rock after about 30 seconds. So, you would have to do some serious wall upgrades.

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 03:43 PM
Running all the wire inside the walls would be a bit of a *****, while if you do the IB setup you can put the amp up top and just run a small signal cable up there, plus there is much less signal loss then.

Plus mounting subs in sheet rock (which i'm assuming your wall is made out of) will crush the sheet rock after about 30 seconds. So, you would have to do some serious wall upgrades.
Ya, I wouldn't mount any speaker directly to sheetrock, especially 8x 15s. It will be 3/4"MDF that will get bolted into the joists. The 2 stage manifold design would definitely be the most convenient construction-wise. Which was my initial thought from the start, so I guess I'll stick with it. The amp however will be mounted behind the entertainment center at bottom of wall and I was going to run the speaker wire up. This way I can tweak the amp if I have to as far as it's para-eq, crossover settings and gain.

joetama
03-30-2006, 03:45 PM
That'll do, sound like you got it all planned out. How many feet will it be from the amp to the speakers and how many watts are you going to run. You might have said this but what amps are you going run?

IamDeMan
03-30-2006, 04:10 PM
That'll do, sound like you got it all planned out. How many feet will it be from the amp to the speakers and how many watts are you going to run. You might have said this but what amps are you going run?It is a Dayton 1000 watt plate amp that I am mounting onto the wall behind AV setup. The ceilings are nearly 10' high, so it may be a good 12' from amp to speaker(s). I probably will set the amp to put out around 600 watts though, because at that much power they will start to bottom at 16hz. There is a rumble filter built into the amp so anything lower than 16 I shouldn't have to worry about. If Winisd is fairly accurate on it's plot for this one I should get 115db @ 16hz with 600 watts as well :crazy:

thylantyr
03-30-2006, 05:45 PM
You should do a test box to check performance before committing 100%.

I prefer a two part bass subsystem. One bass system would be a vertical line
array, maybe four-five 15's per tower, two towers one for each channel.
Configure this system as a ported box design for more chest pounding bass,
maybe design it to interchange port tuning, ie 30hz, 35hz, 40hz, 50hz.

The second system would be the ultra uber monster low frequency setup,
whatever you like that works.

In other words, you may do your attic IB install with 8 15" woofers but
there is nothing stopping you from building another bass system to perform
a different job, the sum of both systems is more uber than a single system of either.

I'm planning a vertical array of 15's, tuned to 32-35hz.. Later I will figure out
the 15hz uber solution, if I can make it fit in the small house - hah.

joetama
03-30-2006, 10:42 PM
The only problem with doing 2 different bass systems is you are going to have serious frequency overlap which is going to cause response hot spots. Plus, since you will have two different sources that are so different you could run into phase issues. The only way to solve that is to take and EQ or Crossover the hell out of the system’s low end. The problem is playing one type of music or movie it's going to be ok, but with something with a different bass structure it's possibly going to be flaky and not natural at all. Plus, it’s going to take forever to get it dialed in just right, and it’ll never be 100% matching.

The large tower or just large bass box idea is a good one, and so is the IB setup but they both have their different properties. I would only go with one and not the other. Personally I would go for a large ported box with a 15” and an 18”. I also wouldn’t go with a car audio sub; I would go with a Pro Audio sub, just for quality reasons.

Nothing against the car audio sub, I am just throwing some ideas out here. I think you need to ask yourself am I going to use 15Hz enough to throw money into a system designed for a 30Hz spectrum. If you are GREAT for you, but I don’t see the need, anyway, it’s all about having fun and if you are and it sounds decent then perfect.

ngsm13
03-30-2006, 10:45 PM
The only problem with doing 2 different bass systems is you are going to have serious frequency overlap which is going to cause response hot spots. Plus, since you will have two different sources that are so different you could run into phase issues. The only way to solve that is to take and EQ or Crossover the hell out of the systemís low end. The problem is playing one type of music or movie it's going to be ok, but with something with a different bass structure it's possibly going to be flaky and not natural at all. Plus, itís going to take forever to get it dialed in just right, and itíll never be 100% matching.

The large tower or just large bass box idea is a good one, and so is the IB setup but they both have their different properties. I would only go with one and not the other. Personally I would go for a large ported box with a 15Ē and an 18Ē. I also wouldnít go with a car audio sub; I would go with a Pro Audio sub, just for quality reasons.

Nothing against the car audio sub, I am just throwing some ideas out here. I think you need to ask yourself am I going to use 15Hz enough to throw money into a system designed for a 30Hz spectrum. If you are GREAT for you, but I donít see the need, anyway, itís all about having fun and if you are and it sounds decent then perfect.

n00bx.

;)

nG

thylantyr
03-31-2006, 12:52 AM
The only problem with doing 2 different bass systems is you are going to have serious frequency overlap which is going to cause response hot spots. Plus, since you will have two different sources that are so different you could run into phase issues. The only way to solve that is to take and EQ or Crossover the hell out of the system’s low end. The problem is playing one type of music or movie it's going to be ok, but with something with a different bass structure it's possibly going to be flaky and not natural at all. Plus, it’s going to take forever to get it dialed in just right, and it’ll never be 100% matching.

The large tower or just large bass box idea is a good one, and so is the IB setup but they both have their different properties. I would only go with one and not the other. Personally I would go for a large ported box with a 15” and an 18”. I also wouldn’t go with a car audio sub; I would go with a Pro Audio sub, just for quality reasons.

Nothing against the car audio sub, I am just throwing some ideas out here. I think you need to ask yourself am I going to use 15Hz enough to throw money into a system designed for a 30Hz spectrum. If you are GREAT for you, but I don’t see the need, anyway, it’s all about having fun and if you are and it sounds decent then perfect.

You have to crossover each system much like you use crossovers on tweeters
and mids :) Crossover for the woofer system, crossover for the subwoofer system.

In my case, a high pass around 30hz-35hz for the ported 15 array, and a low
pass on the monster subwoofer(s). The first bass system is not using
subwoofer caliber drivers as you need better SQ in the upper bass band.
But the subwoofer system needs high excursion monsters to move air.

No matter how you look at it, it's an esoteric setup. Not many would do this
in a house, but I just threw down the comment because you can
and there is no reason to just settle for one system... go bigger if need be ..

Using an EQ to dial the system in is a given.

joetama
03-31-2006, 01:07 AM
I guess it works if you are going for PA sized setup, but if you want something else, then I would go a different way. I say that because I can. LOL....

ngsm13
03-31-2006, 01:20 AM
Exactly, why go to the trouble... and create more things that can go wrong... and create the need for more EQ'ing / xovers...

And more, and more, and more... Bullshit...

If you don't absolutely NEED to. :)

Excellent things about IB, is it extends very well...

nG

IamDeMan
03-31-2006, 09:31 AM
Excellent things about IB, is it extends very well...

nG
Tis what I am banking on. This setup is more for movies than anything. I understand these won't be the most accurate for music but will do the job.

IamDeMan
04-15-2006, 06:59 PM
Here is a picture of the beginning of the manifold. I hate stopping midwork to take progress pix, so you will have to bare with me on no play by play detailed log. I got the meat of the manifold pounded out. It is 72" x 16.5". Tomorrow I work on cutting out the speaker baffles and bracing the inside with dowels. Next weekend I move to the attic and start pounding out the install.

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/Stacey_001.jpg

joetama
04-15-2006, 07:02 PM
Looking good, should be crazy lowend with all those driver coupling like that....

SAG3
04-15-2006, 07:03 PM
thats sweet

IamDeMan
04-16-2006, 06:05 PM
As promised, I got the baffles cut and bracing put in. I will probably brace the outside with 2X4 framing once it is situated on the joists. So here is where I sit for now.

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/Stacey_005.jpg

brandontw
04-26-2006, 01:43 AM
Very common in the IB community of HT setups actually. Some use 8 avalanches. In an IB install output isn't all that great, because your driver will reach it's mechanical limits way before it reaches it's thermal limit. What you do get is really low extension though. So to make up for low output you just double or quadruple the drivers :D


The excessiveness is for dynamic transients of info below 20 hz in movies ;) I want to feel the movie proper. I will have 2 towers that contain 16 4" NSBs and 12 tweeters each in a line array, so when I do listen to music they should be able to keep up nicely with mids and highs.
When are you going to get them line arrays done anyway, i got mine done ;) them NSB's are by far the best .49$ i have ever spent,im glad your doing 12 tweeters per tower, although im not complaining about my measly one per tower, still incredible speaks.

IamDeMan
05-03-2006, 05:59 PM
Update time. This update brings many changes thanks to an oversight. When I first went into the attic before starting this project I mapped out and measured where I wanted this and how I could get it there. The original manifold I made would have gone there no problem, however I never bothered to pull back the insualtion when I was measuring and planning. When I got ready to huff this monster up there I scooped away insulation from the area. It just so happens that this spot has every wire in the house intersecting there going to my OnQ panel(Lan, Alarm, romex, cable, surround sound, and something that I have no clue to) in the master closet. There wasn't enough slack to reposition them either. I wasn't rewiring 20 different wires for numerous reasons. So a revision and modification to the manifold was necessary. So that is where I am at now. A new manifold ready to go in tomorrow.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2846/wedding0029ez.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

IamDeMan
07-24-2006, 09:06 AM
OK. It is all finished, but unfortunately I had the digicam crap out. For some reason it is making weird lines across. You will all have to be happy with pictures of progress from last weekend when I got it installed in the attic. When I get a new camera, I will post the finished pictures and the grill I made.
http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/IMG_4702.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/IMG_4703.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/IMG_4704.jpg

http://s92438186.onlinehome.us/albums/album04/IMG_4705.jpg

Preliminary thoughts are that this thing goes very low. Its presence is not obnoxious like most peaky sealed and ported enclosures. It blends well with the other speakers. I will need to play with it and fine tune it by figuring out the best settings for the para=eq and crossover. I put in a few select movies and tested it out. This subwoofer setup isn't heard as much as it is felt. walls shake and a heavy feeling comes across. On music it is just absolutely flat. Not one note comes across much louder than the rest. Response in change is quick due to an infinite baffles really low group delay. I will get more in depth when I can put up the finished pictures. By then I should have it dialed in all the way and tested a lot of material.

IamDeMan
07-24-2006, 10:21 PM
I may switch amps. I have tested a lot of material today and these things barely move. This amp goes into soft clip protection well before these drivers think of crying. I think I can use a bit more power. Plus I am pretty sure I will need a more robust seperate eq unit anyway. This will do for now, but I can already tell this will be a constantly improving project lol.

jujumantb
07-24-2006, 10:24 PM
:awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome: :awesome:

bibby
07-24-2006, 10:29 PM
WTF are you thinking? hehe.

GJ mang.

IamDeMan
07-25-2006, 08:53 AM
WTF are you thinking? hehe.

GJ mang.
The theme shall be "Go big or go home". :)

I need to get started on my line arrays soon to compliment this beast.

DBfan187
07-25-2006, 09:02 AM
:eyebrow:

thylantyr
07-25-2006, 11:44 AM
Quantity can make quality, most people don't see the light :)

Eugenics
07-25-2006, 12:22 PM
nice house

theCybe
07-25-2006, 12:39 PM
Where's the video of your attic dumping excessive amounts of sub-30hz bass juice all over your loveseat?

That looks great man :)

ballstothewall
07-25-2006, 12:48 PM
nice house

Especially with the tiki bar.

IamDeMan
07-25-2006, 02:36 PM
Quantity can make quality, most people don't see the light :)
I have even seen beyond the light now and what I see, I like :)


nice house
Thanks man. It's actually just modest for a new build. It isn't all that big. The toys just make up for it :)


Where's the video of your attic dumping excessive amounts of sub-30hz bass juice all over your loveseat?

That looks great man :)
Digi cam all borked. This will be done I assure you of that.


Especially with the tiki bar.
My prized posession. Fancy dining/front rooms are waaaay overrated and I am lucky to have a wife that agrees :)

thylantyr
07-25-2006, 03:36 PM
I have even seen beyond the light now and what I see, I like :)

+

I need to get started on my line arrays soon to compliment this beast.

Don't skimp on the line array mains, do it properly the first time even if you
have to wait longer. :yumyum: :cool:

This;
http://www.patfire.com/images/collage-firecracker.jpg

or this;

http://www.thedance.net/~roth/OLC/deathstar.jpg

/hehe

IamDeMan
07-25-2006, 06:08 PM
Don't skimp on the line array mains, do it properly the first time even if you
have to wait longer. :yumyum: :cool:

This;
http://www.patfire.com/images/collage-firecracker.jpg

or this;

http://www.thedance.net/~roth/OLC/deathstar.jpg

/hehe
LMAO, well I already have the drivers. I had them before I started this project. I have 36 NSb and 24 3/4" dayton tweets.

thylantyr
07-26-2006, 11:39 AM
Port those NSB's :)

How many per tower?

I torture my PT2/NSB rig all the time for a year now and no issues.

IamDeMan
07-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Port those NSB's :)

How many per tower?

I torture my PT2/NSB rig all the time for a year now and no issues.Porting has always been in the plan. I may do 16 per tower or 18 per tower. I haven't decided an waht I want my final load to be.

What do you suggest tuning be? I was looking around 65.

thylantyr
07-26-2006, 01:53 PM
One approach is to design the line array to allow an uprade path later so
the line array can deliver a more punishing performance. I don't remember
what your plans were with the amps and electronics, etc.

16 NSB per tower is optimal to allow 2 ohm or 8 ohm wiring {via toggle
switch or not}. Low impedance wiring with a digital crossover rules the planet
when it comes to line arrays using individual drivers, make plans to have this feature.

You can just copy my NSB box design, tuned to 100hz as it's been working
and yields great punishment for the money. I'll challenge any $30k store
speaker with my budget array, that's how much confidence I have in it.

There is a reason for the madness and the design methodology seems weird
to others, but once you experience it, you'll understand.

Most people think 100hz is nutz, ported midwoofers is nutz, low impedance is nutz,
active setup is nutz, four proamps in bridge mode is nutz. I can explain every detail
on why it's uber. :)

IamDeMan
07-26-2006, 02:07 PM
One approach is to design the line array to allow an uprade path later so
the line array can deliver a more punishing performance. I don't remember
what your plans were with the amps and electronics, etc.

16 NSB per tower is optimal to allow 2 ohm or 8 ohm wiring {via toggle
switch or not}. Low impedance wiring with a digital crossover rules the planet
when it comes to line arrays using individual drivers, make plans to have this feature.

You can just copy my NSB box design, tuned to 100hz as it's been working
and yields great punishment for the money. I'll challenge any $30k store
speaker with my budget array, that's how much confidence I have in it.

There is a reason for the madness and the design methodology seems weird
to others, but once you experience it, you'll understand.

Most people think 100hz is nutz, ported midwoofers is nutz, low impedance is nutz,
active setup is nutz, four proamps in bridge mode is nutz. I can explain every detail
on why it's uber. :)LMAO

I will have to bow for now. Maybe in the future I can go active and have nice amps, but for now it will merely be powered by my 110 watt/channel Yamaha receiver which has a built in 4 setting high/low pass crossover(40,60,80,100).

thylantyr
07-26-2006, 03:41 PM
You can still make provisions for future upgrades.

*Make a nice enclosure with bracing/dampening.

*Do NSB cone treatements {$5 total}.

*Seal the NSB's on the front baffle so there is no air leaks, glue, rope caulk, etc.

*Four chamber, four NSB per chamber is easy to do with 6" rear hole per
chamber as the port, port length ~ 1.5" = wood wall thickness. Simple to do.

* An impedance toggle switch add-on isn't expensive, use it in 8 ohm mode with passive
crossover for now, but there is an option for 2 ohm mode & bypass the
passive crossover and toggle 2 ohm mode when going active.

* Use the high pass 80hz - 100hz setting on the AVR.

The bigger reward is getting a longer tweeter line length to realize the power
of an array. Visualize a 36" - 48" tweeter line length as the minimum. :hehe:

// pUniSh //

thylantyr
07-27-2006, 04:38 PM
OT:

The new Holy Diver Live DVD just released. This is the shiznit.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FG65SU/002-9933869-1768033?v=glance&n=130

If you like metal music and want to build a high power audio system, then don't
be 'Caught in the Middle' and 'Don’t Talk to Strangers', look for the 'Sign of the
Southern Cross' and contact the 'Gypsy' in 'Heaven & Hell', then spend 'One Night
in the City' and walk through the 'Gates of Babylon', then you'll find the 'Man on
the Silver Mountain' near the 'Rainbow in the Dark'. Ask for the 'Invisible' 'Tarot
Woman' and 'Long Live Rock ‘N’ Roll'... We Rock.

:weak:
:lol:

smd4life
07-27-2006, 04:49 PM
omg your the fvcking ****

thylantyr
07-27-2006, 05:23 PM
We Rock

repeat x100

IamDeMan
07-27-2006, 08:32 PM
OT:

The new Holy Diver Live DVD just released. This is the shiznit.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FG65SU/002-9933869-1768033?v=glance&n=130

If you like metal music and want to build a high power audio system, then don't
be 'Caught in the Middle' and 'Donít Talk to Strangers', look for the 'Sign of the
Southern Cross' and contact the 'Gypsy' in 'Heaven & Hell', then spend 'One Night
in the City' and walk through the 'Gates of Babylon', then you'll find the 'Man on
the Silver Mountain' near the 'Rainbow in the Dark'. Ask for the 'Invisible' 'Tarot
Woman' and 'Long Live Rock ĎNí Roll'... We Rock.

:weak:
:lol:BOOM.

Sounds like great material for some seriously loud setup!