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brandontw
01-11-2006, 07:54 PM
Well this project was a little more than i bargained for i guess, but finally i am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have had a hard time geting around to working on it with working and school full time, but christmas break has given me a chance to get a bit more done. I got one speaker all wired up and ready to seal up and paint. I tested it to make sure all of the speakers were working and they were.:eek: Wow, i can tell these are going to be impressive, and they werent even in an enclosure, just a panel of speakers.

I finally got a decent digicam that wasnt made by retarded possums, so here are a few pics of the project... enjoy.:up2somet:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3523/linearraycons88dh.jpg
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/6812/linearraycons74lt.jpg
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/7150/linearraycons65ea.jpg
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/3738/linearraycons53ke.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1094/linearraycons41jl.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/880/linearraycons38nf.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3971/linearraycons21rw.jpg
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/926/linearraycons12eo.jpg

bumpn_gt
01-11-2006, 07:57 PM
wtf is that for?? wtfhouse are you going to fit that in??

Pop da Hatch
01-11-2006, 07:57 PM
whats the rms on those speakers? - what amp are you using?

PV Audio
01-11-2006, 08:19 PM
whats the rms on those speakers? - what amp are you using?
Like 2wrms :laugh:

But they'll take alot ;)

bimma85
01-11-2006, 08:21 PM
wtf is that for?? wtfhouse are you going to fit that in??
x2.....:crazy: lookin good though :) GL with the rest.

ballstothewall
01-11-2006, 08:54 PM
Those look like NSB's. They have a rms of 5 watts, but thylantyr is putting 3600wrms to each tower on his line array w/ NSB's. From what I understand too, you need to chamfer the edge on the inside of the hole for the driver (If that made any sense). Looks good though man!!!

PV Audio
01-11-2006, 08:57 PM
^^ Roundover or 45 degree chamfer bit is a must.

ibanezcollector
01-11-2006, 08:58 PM
whats the final ohm load?

thylantyr
01-11-2006, 09:23 PM
We are the Borg!

You will be assimilated!

/hehe

XtrmAudioCncpts
01-11-2006, 09:25 PM
they look so yummy i wish i could do that

baseballer1100
01-11-2006, 09:30 PM
You are crazy end of story. Yet that is really cool.

thylantyr
01-11-2006, 09:39 PM
Do an outside test first, to see the power of an array. Stand up the arrays
in the garage and aim them towards the street and walk across as far as
you can, be amazed like deer in headlights. .......... ** looks around for cops **

I did this and tortured the folks and the cops came.... /hehe

JAZN
01-11-2006, 10:36 PM
O. MY. How big are they exactly? More info!! They look awesome :)

brandontw
01-12-2006, 01:34 AM
LOL thanks for the compliments and stuff.

The speakers are about 6'8" tall, so yes, they will command quite a bit of attention in the room, but they will still only take up a little more than a square foot of floor space, so i dont know what yall are tripping about with the "what house are those gonna fit in" stuff.. they will fit just like any other floor speakers.

Like people said, those are nsb's, so they are 5 watts per speak, so the speakers will have pleny of power handling. The mids are arranged in a "4 sets of four arranged in series" pattern so the final load is 8 ohms, and the tweet is 8 ohms and the crossover is arranged as such that the load of the speaks will be 8 ohms.

I will be using a Harmon Kardon HK3470 and a Parasound HCA1500A to power em, and I have a dayton 12" powered sub to take up the rest of the low end.


Any other questions?

thylantyr
01-12-2006, 02:08 AM
You need this;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000127ZEG/102-3728007-0724902?v=glance&n=130

Song -> Master's Apprentices

That DVD ownsjoo..

Two sets they play, the mellow set and the metal thrashing set.

Give the line array a work out before throwing in Slayer :)

theCybe
01-12-2006, 02:10 AM
Those are so hot.

Very good work brandon

brandontw
01-12-2006, 09:03 PM
Those are so hot.

Very good work brandon

lets just hope they sound as good as they look:veryhapp:

IamDeMan
01-13-2006, 10:15 AM
Well this project was a little more than i bargained for i guess, but finally i am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have had a hard time geting around to working on it with working and school full time, but christmas break has given me a chance to get a bit more done. I got one speaker all wired up and ready to seal up and paint. I tested it to make sure all of the speakers were working and they were.:eek: Wow, i can tell these are going to be impressive, and they werent even in an enclosure, just a panel of speakers.

I finally got a decent digicam that wasnt made by retarded possums, so here are a few pics of the project... enjoy.:up2somet:

Your craftsmanship on these is looking really **** impressive! Very nice work thus far. What would is that you are using? Are you apinting or staining? I can only hope man looks this impressive.

Pyro_By_Nature
01-13-2006, 10:30 AM
How hard/expensive is it to build a pair of these? And more importantly...........how's the output? I've been wanting to build a pair and experiment but I don't know where to start.Would it be possible for you to point me in the right direction?

IamDeMan
01-13-2006, 03:49 PM
How hard/expensive is it to build a pair of these? And more importantly...........how's the output? I've been wanting to build a pair and experiment but I don't know where to start.Would it be possible for you to point me in the right direction?Here is output potential...
http://forums.caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?t=135860

As far as ease, that depends on if you have the right tools. Not to difficult for the skilled with proper tools. Price used to be dirt cheap when PE had the NSBs , but sadly the NSBs are no more. I suppose it can be done relatively cheap with another driver still, but not as cheap as $.50 NSBs :)

brandontw
01-13-2006, 09:00 PM
How hard/expensive is it to build a pair of these? And more importantly...........how's the output? I've been wanting to build a pair and experiment but I don't know where to start.Would it be possible for you to point me in the right direction?

Its a little harder than I planned, but still not to difficult... as far as the cost... I got the NSB's for 50 cents per speak, then the tang band tweets were 17 or so, and crossovers, 30 for the pair.

Thatís the easy part though, my biggest challenge was getting wood for cheap, I would have used MDF, but I wasnít sure about the structural integrity for a 7 foot tower, and it also would have weighed A LOT. In retrospect, I should have used birch plywood or something similar, but hindsight is always 20/20 eh?

I opted to use 1Ē plywood boards (they turn out to be less than 1Ē) it turnís out to be roughly 70 dollars for the wood -this was the biggest mistake of the project, and almost its downfall. The wood is soft, brittle, knotty, and warped. I picked the straightest ones HD had and still they were VERY bent. This made assembly and creating the 4 inch holes a nightmare. One of the bridges in between the NSBís actually cracked in the making and I had to glue it back together, and this made me very uncomfortable. In addition, the quality of the wood made chamfering the insides of the holes for the NSBís completely impossible. I am just hoping this doesnít ruin the sound of the speakers. The knots in the wood were a bear because they are super hard and donít cut screw or glue worth a crap.

So, my one piece of advice: use plywood of some sort if you would like to build some of these. I figures out it would have only cost me like 15 bucks more for a couple of sheets of nice plywood L

A minimum tool list:

Table saw or:
Skill Saw if you got skills (I got skills)
Palm sander
Jigsaw
Drill press, if you plan to use a hole saw for the 4 inch holes, unless you are a robot and can hole a hand drill that strong.
Bits, drill, and such
Other various stuff that you need to do stuff.i cant think of everything that I need right

brandontw
01-29-2006, 01:31 AM
well today was a productive day. I went out to my dads shop early in the AM
(tough for me on a weekend) and got to work on these speakers, i was determined to hear them by the end of the day. about 8 hours later, They were ready to play.
What i did today:

wired all 32 mids
wired tweets
installed crossovers
installed terminal cups
polyfill
internal bracing
sanded and filled screw holes
attatched front speaker plate onto final box
fabricated MDF base
attatched base



Im sorry i forgot my digicam, so no pics today
, but nonethe less i got to plug them into my dads equipment and give them a test run. I started with:
postal service-such great heights
then went to hed kandi - empty streets remix
then disturbed
then godsmack
then lil john
then brooks and dunn
then dixie chicks
then lost at last
then finished with some vocals from evanescence


me and my dad agree...these things ROCK!!!

super loud, distortion free
great vertical dispersion and depth, we were both amazed by it.
great sound quality too, not harsh at all, very easy to listen to, and smooth and crisp.

Total build cost ~ 200$
Cost of my dads B&W 601 shelf speaks - 700$
The look on my dads face when he heard these totally owning his speaks....PRICELESS

thylantyr
01-29-2006, 10:40 AM
Total build cost ~ 200$
Cost of my dads B&W 601 shelf speaks - 700$

My NSB/PT2 array cost 10x more to build than yours. The big costs were construction materials
to make the over-the-top budget array, second big cost is the 20 tweeters. I could
do it cheaper but didn't.

So... $2k to build, but it beats store bought speakers costing $20k. I auditoned
many high end systems like B&W {$16k speakers} and the array offers alot
more. Even Martin Logan electrostats were boring by comparison.

brandontw
01-29-2006, 09:59 PM
Total build cost ~ 200$
Cost of my dads B&W 601 shelf speaks - 700$

My NSB/PT2 array cost 10x more to build than yours. The big costs were construction materials
to make the over-the-top budget array, second big cost is the 20 tweeters. I could
do it cheaper but didn't.

So... $2k to build, but it beats store bought speakers costing $20k. I auditoned
many high end systems like B&W {$16k speakers} and the array offers alot
more. Even Martin Logan electrostats were boring by comparison.

Totally sweet.

brandontw
01-29-2006, 10:13 PM
My dad was talking about me making a smaller array for him, mabye with 8 mids and 2 tweets per tower. If i did this i would probably use better mids, perhaps these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-818
and the tweets, i might go with these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-822


if i used 8 mids and 2 tweets per tower, that would be like ~480W RMS power handling:crazy: it seems like these would sound wicked. and i could make them so they would sit on a table or a stand, and the vertical dispersion would still be decent.

what do you think of this?


i want the final load to be 4 ohms, so im not sure about the crossover..any ideas?

joetama
01-29-2006, 10:18 PM
Total build cost ~ 200$
Cost of my dads B&W 601 shelf speaks - 700$

My NSB/PT2 array cost 10x more to build than yours. The big costs were construction materials
to make the over-the-top budget array, second big cost is the 20 tweeters. I could
do it cheaper but didn't.

So... $2k to build, but it beats store bought speakers costing $20k. I auditoned
many high end systems like B&W {$16k speakers} and the array offers alot
more. Even Martin Logan electrostats were boring by comparison.

How were they better? How did they compare in imagining, color, depth, and tone?

thylantyr
01-29-2006, 11:31 PM
My dad was talking about me making a smaller array for him, mabye with 8 mids and 2 tweets per tower. If i did this i would probably use better mids, perhaps these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-818
and the tweets, i might go with these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-822


if i used 8 mids and 2 tweets per tower, that would be like ~480W RMS power handling:crazy: it seems like these would sound wicked. and i could make them so they would sit on a table or a stand, and the vertical dispersion would still be decent.

what do you think of this?


i want the final load to be 4 ohms, so im not sure about the crossover..any ideas?

Small arrays are neat but you may miss the horsepower of the big array.
Floor to ceiling type of arrays really shine, but cost more. It's only money,
go big. Build once not twice, he may want a bigger one later...

joetama
01-29-2006, 11:47 PM
Which B&W's did they sound better than? And on what points did they sound better....

thylantyr
01-29-2006, 11:50 PM
Small arrays are neat but you may miss the horsepower of the big array.
Floor to ceiling type of arrays really shine, but cost more. It's only money,
go big. Build once not twice, he may want a bigger one later...

Comparing store bought vs. DIY always gets this reaction.

Analyze both camps.

The non-DIY'er has to rely on auditions to find the sound they want. They
compare products. Many times the products they like are out of their
budget so they settle for less. Sometimes they are happy with the purchase
on a smaller budget, good for them. Sometimes they don't know that there is
an elite solution because they haven't been exposed to all the possibilities.

A seasoned DIY'er will know all the possibility or many of them. They will also
audition speakers but most of the time they are not satisfied because...
A) speakers are nice, but expensive
B) speakers are boring and expensive
C) speakers are lame and affordable

If there is no satisfaction in store bought then the DIY'er will DIY and study
the art.

Analogy -> You want a fast car, zero to sixty in 3 seconds. Visiting the local
Toyota, Nissan, Ford, GM dealer, you are unable to find it, maybe you can get
excited but it's not the exact thrill ride you seek. What do you do? You find
$200k cars that do this job, but if you can't afford it you build your own muscle
car for $20k. The reason the muscle car beats store bought product is because
you are specificially looking for something in a car.

In my case, I like the sound systems to have high impact akin to fast accelleration
of a car. I don't care about comfortable seats or quiet ride, or any other fancy shmancy feature. When I audition store speakers I'm looking for that specific element and it's not there.

Example, the salesman was bragging about the 'slam' in the sound of their
flagship setup -> B&W w/McIntosh .. I didn't hear any slam, maybe zero to
60 in 7 seconds is slam for him, but for me I want zero to 60 in 1 second. To me,
the sound was dull and boring in that respect. In other words, a dragster would
be my sound system :) Or fighter jet :)

I have studied on how to get the sound I want. I spent many
ages figuring out the recipe for what makes me happy. A line array is a good
example of what I like. High horsepower, fast accelleration. Ride comfort is
not the first item on the list, but that doesn't mean it can't be comfortable,
you can do things to make it very comfortable.


// comedy //
What I find funny about audio is --> What people avoid is what they really
like but don't know it.

People don't want big speakers with high SQL and 10kw of power, that is
the first reaction you hear. But after they blindly audition a system like this,
they can't live without it, unbeknownst to them it's big and has high power.

joetama
01-30-2006, 12:29 AM
I don’t know, I'm about balance, clarity, and having a clean open sound. If you want brutal SPL just buy some JBL gear and pump an *** load of wattage on it. I don’t see how you can justify spending $2,250.00 on a 10001 or $1,300.00 on a PLX (Prices from Sound Broker). I think you are buying a Pinto for $200 and making mods that make it cost more than a Ferrari. I don’t mind people who know what they like and know how to make something sound good, but I do mind people telling me that what I know is wrong. I have heard big loud powerful speakers, Meyer M3D, MILO, MSL-3A, MSL-6, JBL Line array etc. But, I still don’t look for that type sound in my living room. To each his own…

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 12:44 AM
To clarify:

The budget arrays are impressive for the cost and they can really beat
down store bought product costing 10x more if you build them properly.

The PLX and Crest amps are going to be used for a future build, the big
system in the works for the past 5 years. I just so happen to be using
four PLX on the budget array because it's too cool. I put the Adcom 555
back on the test bench and the RMX2450 is lonely again.

So which line array project are you referring too ? There is a logical explanation
for all these ideas.

brandontw
01-30-2006, 01:01 AM
Which B&W's did they sound better than? And on what points did they sound better....

WARNING this is long, and no one may be interested exept for B&W_EE




I think the were 601's im not sure if the have anything before or after the 601, but I know they cost about 700$/pair a few years ago at a local A/V store. They have 6-7 inch yellow kevlar midbass driver and a titanium tweeter i think.

As far as comparing them to the line arrays, I thought the line arrays would mabye be more loud and harsh, with an emphasis on power instead of quality. But I was mistaken. Even at low levels, the line arrays filled the room with rich, smooth sound, and the vocals and highs were still clear. I went with the textile tweeter, because I feel like aluminum/titanium tweeters tend to be harsh (this is probably in my head) and this tweeter did me good. At low levels, it kept up with the mids, and at high levels it didnt get harsh and painful.

And as far as the mids, its hard to imagine a 4 inch speeker putting out any kind of kick or bass, but when you have 32 working together, its very impressive indeed. We turned off the sub for a few songs, and the line arrays still shook the house with midbass and moderate bass. This really suprised me. There is a particular song, from the garden state soundtrack, called winding road, and it has good vocals, but on most speakers, it has a certain tone that becomes too prominent and overpowers the vocals, and on the b&w's it sounded good, but it sounded REALLY good on the line arrays.

But where they really shine is at high levels, I am not sure I have ever heard music that loud with absolutly no distortion. Even with PA speakers, you hear wierd stuff at high levels, but these were just clean. The B&W's level out and the woofers start overextending and the tweeter starts complaining at high levels, and we have acually blown the b&w's listening to music not near as loud as the line arrays went.

I may have had a biased opinion because I had the costs in mind, my ears just could not tell 500$ worth of difference in the speakers. If i had to choose, I would definately choose the line arrays. It was like the difference between good component speaks like infinity kappa's, and REALLY good component speaks, like high end MB quarts. Just overall more pleasent, and of couse impressive to listen too than the B&W's. I guess my dad agrees, becasue he is ready to put the B&W's in the closet and use line arrays. And its not like he just bought the b&w's on a whim, he spent months shopping, and even when to the next biggest city to shop so he could hear more options he settled on the B&W's becasue they weere the best for his price range.

brandontw
01-30-2006, 01:04 AM
Small arrays are neat but you may miss the horsepower of the big array.
Floor to ceiling type of arrays really shine, but cost more. It's only money,
go big. Build once not twice, he may want a bigger one later...
As for the mini array that is under discussion, even is i used half as many woofers, with 8x the power handling, I would still lack hosepower?

I trying to find a way to make him some good speaks, but i dont think he wanted them 7 feet tall.

brandontw
01-30-2006, 01:06 AM
I just love this new hobbie you got me into thylantyr, but i see alot of pissed neighbors and an empty wallet in my future.:crap:;):up2somet:

joetama
01-30-2006, 01:24 AM
I have some DM601 S3's and yes they do get harsh at high volume, a long way above comfortable listening volume, and blowing them up is insane!!! I can hear the difference so that’s why I like B&W. But if you can’t and just like volume knock yourself out...

ngsm13
01-30-2006, 01:35 AM
I think ******* are in order.

NG

joetama
01-30-2006, 01:45 AM
I like *******!!!

brandontw
01-30-2006, 01:45 AM
I think ******* are in order.

NG:crazy: what?

joetama
01-30-2006, 01:46 AM
:crazy: what?

Do you not know what ******* are????

brandontw
01-30-2006, 11:59 AM
Do you not know what ******* are????but why are ******* in order for a line array?

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 12:29 PM
I heard the B&W 800D with McIntosh setup, the speakers in the store had a
$16k sticker on them. To them, it was their best system to showcase. It's
no match for a good DIY project though :)

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 12:32 PM
There are two ways to get high sensitivity out of the array.

More drivers [some exception] and lower impedance wiring.

Most people don't wire the array for the lowest possible impedance
because their amps aren't able to cope with it. But there is a hidden
secret, amp can do more than rated when only doing tweeters and mids
and in an active setup, it's easier to control.

You should see the prosound folks go into a grand mall seizure when I tell them
my PLX is running 0.8 ohms in bridged mode.

joetama
01-30-2006, 12:45 PM
Maybe you are a super genius with audio or something, but I don’t see how putting some stuff together and getting lucky can compare with millions of dollars in researching and engineering. For Christ sake they custom build their drivers and cabinets to work together. I agree with the fact that they don’t get that loud, but Jesus that diamond tweeter sounds like heaven. Even their alloy tweeters sound awesome, actually I’m going to go pick up my new 703’s next week. This is just turning into a Ford, Dodge, Chevy battle where everyone likes their own thing and won’t admit something else is better. All loudspeakers have limitations; the whole idea is building a system for what you want. But, if you go too much in on one area the system will lack in another. Line arrays are good for volume and covering a large area well because of the coupling, but they lack in character, depth, imaging etc because of that same coupling. Strict form Piston speakers (Non array) don’t have as much coupling so they don’t have the coverage or volume capabilities, but they are better at balance, tone depth, and imaging. So, it’s a trade off. I’m not saying your stuff doesn’t sound good, I’m just saying my stuff sounds just as good but we are measuring that from different points of perspective.

Beat_Dominator
01-30-2006, 12:52 PM
Maybe you are a super genius with audio or something, but I donít see how putting some stuff together and getting lucky can compare with millions of dollars in researching and engineering. ..........


This isn't really a fight/arguement anyone can win.


With that said I agree, there is no doubt (in my mind) that the DIY'er will have some placebo effect with something they build on their own. (I hope to get my monitors finished in a few months :) )

Conversly, I believe that an amazing quality can be obtained at a much lower price when things are done DIY.

There is also the matter that most DIY'ers DIY because they can't afford to have Wilson Alexandria's in their living/listening room. It is a rare breed of store that has their hi-fi set up properly in a room acoustically tuned specifically for the current setup it contains. So it is highly likely that a $50 DIY 1-way in your home sounds better than a $2,000 bookshelf in a store.

joetama
01-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Agreed, I'm done arguing....

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 02:17 PM
Fyi, I don't see this as a debate with a winner or loser in the end.

Maybe you are a super genius with audio or something, but I don’t see how putting some stuff together and getting lucky can compare with millions of dollars in researching and engineering.

Audio is simple if you know what you want and know the simple steps
to find it. It has nothing to do with the R&D budget of manufacturers.
The trick is simple, you go and audition product and pick what you like, ie I need
a car so I auditioned many and chose one. Why didn't I DIY a car? Because I
found something I like and DIY would have taken a long time for me because I'm
not interested in DIY cars. I bought a used one to save money, I don't need brand new 'bling bling'.

For Christ sake they custom build their drivers and cabinets to work together.

They probably custom build the drivers to lower their costs so they can
profit more. Think about it. You can design a driver and pay profits to the build
house or you can build them yourself paying noone. Cabinet influences on
sound are things we already know about.

I agree with the fact that they don’t get that loud, but Jesus that diamond tweeter sounds like heaven. Even their alloy tweeters sound awesome, actually I’m going to go pick up my new 703’s next week.

Loud is my criteria so anything not loud would be boring for me, but it doesn't
mean it's a bad design. Also, for every person who likes diamond tweeters
{or whatever technology}, you can also find someone who hates it.

This is just turning into a Ford, Dodge, Chevy battle where everyone likes their own thing and won’t admit something else is better.

Audio is subjective. If I found something better in the store, wouldn't it be
easier for me just to sink $50k on a pair of speakers and be done, have mental
peace or maybe I can't find the magic I want so I will take that $50k and build
my own. For me, my lastest project has been a 5+ year quest. I think Frodo
taking the ring to the lava would have been an easier quest :) .. but the reward will
be 100x better because it's custom made for me only.

All loudspeakers have limitations; the whole idea is building a system for what you want. But, if you go too much in on one area the system will lack in another.

DIY speakers is all about building custom sound for you, if you meet your
goals imagine the satisfaction you get and nothing lacks. Are you building
the system to enjoy it or to prove someting on the engineering level? Some people build for 'proof of engineering', to lure customers... Some people build
based on audience approval. I build for me only. I could care less what others think. I want to kick back and enjoy my tunes, everyone else be-gone when
I'm in my zone. // rofl //

Line arrays are good for volume and covering a large area well because of the coupling, but they lack in character, depth, imaging etc because of that same coupling.

Line arrays have more character to me, good imagining and depth if you do it well, and there is a big sound stage if you design it as such. Some people hate
the big stage, I love it. Some people do power tapering to reduce the stage
height, but not me.

There are some high end line arrays that have compromised designs
in spite of their very high costs. I've seen better DIY efforts in the past 3 years.
Granted, the DIY home line array movement has accellerated very fast thanks
to a few cyberspace individuals so the DIY crowd is really making big progess.
Notice how Dynaudio, Focal and now Audax left the DIY driver market. Wonder
why? Because DIY'ers are building world class systems and it's pissing off
the manufacturers as their products don't look that special anymore especially
when a DIY'er can do it for a fraction of the cost.

adam71
01-30-2006, 02:18 PM
but Jesus that diamond tweeter sounds like heaven. Even their alloy tweeters sound awesome, actually Iím going to go pick up my new 703ís next week.

Alright, now I'm jealous. I heard the 802s last week in South Bend and they were hooked up to a Sunfire Signature 300 2 channel amp, Sunfire Vacuum tube preamp, and a Marantz SA8260 SACD/CD player. The sound?? Well, lets just say my own system at home sounded like total **** in comparison. I'll never listen to something like that again unless I can afford to take it home with me.:crap:




http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20802D

http://www.sunfire.com/300TwoFrontPR.htm

http://www.sunfire.com/ClassicVacuumTubePreAmp.htm

http://us.marantz.com/Products/598.asp

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 02:21 PM
With that said I agree, there is no doubt (in my mind) that the DIY'er will have some placebo effect with something they build on their own. (I hope to get my monitors finished in a few months :) )

This is more true with noobs. After you done this for a while you start
to filter out voodoo and you just want the real answers.

There is also the matter that most DIY'ers DIY because they can't afford to have Wilson Alexandria's in their living/listening room. It is a rare breed of store that has their hi-fi set up properly in a room acoustically tuned specifically for the current setup it contains. So it is highly likely that a $50 DIY 1-way in your home sounds better than a $2,000 bookshelf in a store.

Don't give those Wilson's too much credit. Just because the $125k price tag
is out of reach for many doesn't imply it's the best or you will like it. Someone
last year on CAF absorbed my preaching, took my advice and came back
in the end to realize there is really too much hooey in the home audio business,
overpriced stuff not worthy of the sound.

If I wanted Wilson, I'd just buy it. But I can do much better *for me*.

adam71
01-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Thylantyr, you make some very good points man but B&W speakers are one of a kind. You have your way of making yourself happy and others have theirs. I don't have the time and/or energy for DIY so I don't mind spending the money on a reputable brand of speakers. I have Mirage now (10+years old) and my next speakers will be B&W........NO question.

adam71
01-30-2006, 02:25 PM
there is really too much hooey in the home audio business,
overpriced stuff not worthy of the sound.

I couldn't agree more brother. In my opinion if you dont' know how to shop for home gear you'll get fucked over by marketing hype.

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 02:26 PM
Alright, now I'm jealous. I heard the 802s last week in South Bend and they were hooked up to a Sunfire Signature 300 2 channel amp, Sunfire Vacuum tube preamp, and a Marantz SA8260 SACD/CD player. The sound?? Well, lets just say my own system at home sounded like total **** in comparison. I'll never listen to something like that again unless I can afford to take it home with me.:crap:




http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20802D

http://www.sunfire.com/300TwoFrontPR.htm

http://www.sunfire.com/ClassicVacuumTubePreAmp.htm

http://us.marantz.com/Products/598.asp

There is alot in the DIY world that will amaze you more. The trick is -> DIY.
Can you DIY? People can help with design and concepts, but can you cut
wood and execute the design? Given the same budget of those products
you linked, you can do amazing stuff yourself. You won't learn the skill in
1 day, maybe not a year, but maybe in a couple years you can kick some azz
DIY-style.

adam71
01-30-2006, 02:31 PM
There is alot in the DIY world that will amaze you more. The trick is -> DIY.
Can you DIY? People can help with design and concepts, but can you cut
wood and execute the design? Given the same budget of those products
you linked, you can do amazing stuff yourself. You won't learn the skill in
1 day, maybe not a year, but maybe in a couple years you can kick some azz
DIY-style.

You're probably right, but like I said earlier I don't have the time or energy to invest into that sort of project. Besides that, as far as speakers are concerned I'm not even contemplating the 800 series of B&W. I'm looking more toward the affordable 600 series.

joetama
01-30-2006, 03:04 PM
600 series speakers are good, they can be a bit harsh if you like high volume, but if you can handle listening to them at a normal human volume they are good, and if you want something with clarity and depth with out building it yourself and spending an *** load of money. Do a little shopping around ask about buying floor models, I got my DM601 S3 speakers for $301 for the pair, sure beats $700 that some people pay.

ngsm13
01-30-2006, 03:05 PM
You're probably right, but like I said earlier I don't have the time or energy to invest into that sort of project. Besides that, as far as speakers are concerned I'm not even contemplating the 800 series of B&W. I'm looking more toward the affordable 600 series.

Even the 700 series is blissful tho...save for it ;)...

NG

joetama
01-30-2006, 03:07 PM
Agreed, the 700 Series are blissful.

adam71
01-30-2006, 03:20 PM
Even the 700 series is blissful tho...save for it ;)...

NG

I'll keep that in mind.:naughty:

Beat_Dominator
01-30-2006, 03:59 PM
Don't give those Wilson's too much credit. Just because the $125k price tag
is out of reach for many doesn't imply it's the best or you will like it. Someone
last year on CAF absorbed my preaching, took my advice and came back
in the end to realize there is really too much hooey in the home audio business,
overpriced stuff not worthy of the sound.

If I wanted Wilson, I'd just buy it. But I can do much better *for me*.

Just because they cost a lot doesn't mean that it's all hooey :) . But as you state the price does not garantee that I would like it. I've heard a few systems in friends homes and one notable was a KEF/McIntosh system that sounded just plain boring to me.

As to your comment on "ignoring" placebo...Your belief that you or anyone with some set level of expirence that makes them cease to be a "noob" is immune to placebo is hard to accept. Scientifically, so little is known about it's exact workings, none of us here can argue for/against its existence, but my personal stance and expirence is that it is always present and influences impressions. Only when someone has heard their new reference (live music doesn't count ;) ) will they realize that their project is in need of an upgrade..... and we're ALWAYS upgrading.

ngsm13
01-30-2006, 04:06 PM
Yeah thy...

If you're immune to the placebo, why do you insist on making a new thread everytime you do something new. It's just to get a reaction out of those reading it ;).

NG

joetama
01-30-2006, 04:09 PM
I'm starting to agree with the pro audio guys lol....

Beat_Dominator
01-30-2006, 04:13 PM
It's all about toeing the line :p:

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 06:28 PM
I've heard a few systems in friends homes and one notable was a KEF/McIntosh system that sounded just plain boring to me.

:)

As to your comment on "ignoring" placebo...Your belief that you or anyone with some set level of expirence that makes them cease to be a "noob" is immune to placebo is hard to accept. Scientifically, so little is known about it's exact workings, none of us here can argue for/against its existence, but my personal stance and expirence is that it is always present and influences impressions. Only when someone has heard their new reference (live music doesn't count ;) ) will they realize that their project is in need of an upgrade..... and we're ALWAYS upgrading.

I forgot that there are many people with lots of experience that are still
brashwashed by the placebo effect.. my bad .. I see this often in the electronics
forum, ie ... they say -> "I swapped out the opamps with betters ones and the SQ improvement was better.
There is alot of baloney in the electronics DIY forum from experience circuit designers, they fall prey to their upgrades and
make outrageous claims that they can't prove.

The difference between them and me -> If I upgrade, I tell you the real reasons
why -> "Because I want to" .. "Because I can" .. "Because I want more stored energy just because" .. "Because it looks cool" ... etc.

ngsm13
01-30-2006, 06:32 PM
I've heard a few systems in friends homes and one notable was a KEF/McIntosh system that sounded just plain boring to me.

:)

As to your comment on "ignoring" placebo...Your belief that you or anyone with some set level of expirence that makes them cease to be a "noob" is immune to placebo is hard to accept. Scientifically, so little is known about it's exact workings, none of us here can argue for/against its existence, but my personal stance and expirence is that it is always present and influences impressions. Only when someone has heard their new reference (live music doesn't count ;) ) will they realize that their project is in need of an upgrade..... and we're ALWAYS upgrading.

I forgot that there are many people with lots of experience that are still
brashwashed by the placebo effect.. my bad .. I see this often in the electronics
forum, ie ... they say -> "I swapped out the opamps with betters ones and the SQ improvement was better.
There is alot of baloney in the electronics DIY forum from experience circuit designers, they fall prey to their upgrades and
make outrageous claims that they can't prove.

The difference between them and me -> If I upgrade, I tell you the real reasons
why -> "Because I want to" .. "Because I can" .. "Because I want more stored energy just because" .. "Because it looks cool" ... etc.

Did you neg me? Just wondering.

NG

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Yeah thy...

If you're immune to the placebo, why do you insist on making a new thread everytime you do something new. It's just to get a reaction out of those reading it ;).

NG

Placebo in in audio is like swapping amps and claiming an SQ boost based on
the wrong reasons why you interpreted better SQ. It's usually a different reason
than people think.

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 06:45 PM
It's all about toeing the line :p:

ie, rotating cabinets like mine :)

... shhh

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 06:49 PM
Maybe the mods should cleap up the thread to keep OP's thread lean for reference?
The thread took a weird curve............................................. ..... into oblivion..

ngsm13
01-30-2006, 06:52 PM
Maybe the mods should cleap up the thread to keep OP's thread lean for reference?
The thread took a weird curve............................................. ..... into oblivion..

Remember, this IS ca.com ;)

lol.

NG

joetama
01-30-2006, 06:54 PM
not Yoursoapbox.com LOL...

adam71
01-30-2006, 07:02 PM
Maybe the mods should cleap up the thread to keep OP's thread lean for reference?
The thread took a weird curve............................................. ..... into oblivion..

I wouldn't worry about that. There aren't too many threads on this forum that stay completely on topic.:rolleyes:

ballstothewall
01-30-2006, 07:21 PM
Woa, what is this "On Topic" thing that you speak of? I'm not familiar with it. Please teach the uninformed what "On Topic" means.

thylantyr
01-30-2006, 07:39 PM
Remember, this IS ca.com ;)

lol.

NG

With 388 posts, I don't think I have the ability to remember.

I'm a CAF regular, but I noticed this place needs more evil ....... ;)

brandontw
01-30-2006, 11:17 PM
wow, this thread went nuts, i think im going to bring it back to its roots, pics or the line arrays, i hope to have final pics next weekend, then i will post them and let this thread die.

A second line array is in the works, so i will need help, i might start a new thread....

Beat_Dominator
01-31-2006, 02:06 PM
:woot:


It's an open discussion format here, if you want to get on topic, lets discuss the Magaline vs. the grand reference......... TL with or without ribbons? +/- ????

thylantyr
01-31-2006, 05:14 PM
Dali Megaline is cool for store bought. ~$40,000/pair, maybe more.

White paper here;
http://www.dali.dk/admin/filer/MegaLine%20WP.pdf

Modular design so you can stack them, pretty cool.
Active crossover system, pretty cool.

2 way with 6.5" midwoofers, ported {rear ports} and planar dipole ribbon
tweeters.

Someone I 'indirectly' know who is a audio salesman thinks the Megaline is
better than the Genesis 1.1 system which cost a bundle more. This person
also thinks a DIY'er can't match what these two systems offer and obviously,
I had to punish the guy for making that dumb claim :)

thylantyr
01-31-2006, 05:15 PM
Dali Megaline is cool for store bought. ~$40,000/pair, maybe more.

White paper here;
http://www.dali.dk/admin/filer/MegaLine%20WP.pdf

Modular design so you can stack them, pretty cool.
Active crossover system, pretty cool.

2 way with 6.5" midwoofers, ported {rear ports} and planar dipole ribbon
tweeters.

Someone I 'indirectly' know who is an audio salesman thinks the Megaline is
better than the Genesis 1.1 system which cost a bundle more. This person
also thinks a DIY'er can't match what these two systems offer and obviously,
I had to punish the guy for making that dumb claim :)

brandontw
02-06-2006, 10:06 PM
Well... Im gonna bring this thread back up and on topic once more. I was out at my dads to get my mail, so I took some pics of the unfinished, but fully operational line arrays. I guess my dad liked my speaks so much, he totally removed his B&W's for a while and replaced them with these, becasue it will be a while before i get out to stain and finish them. The B&W's used to be right where the line arrays are now, on stands.

Anyway:


Left:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6387/im0013934ar.jpg

Right:
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2483/im0013922ba.jpg

Both:
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/5831/im0013948rx.jpg

Amp, Reciever and Cd Player:
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/4417/im0013955gh.jpg

Rear:
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/1289/im0013962qv.jpg

brandontw
02-06-2006, 10:09 PM
Eventually I will finish them, and get fully finished pics up, but it may be a while.

thylantyr
02-06-2006, 10:16 PM
Time to crank some Opeth 'Masters Apprentices'................ :)

ballstothewall
02-06-2006, 10:36 PM
Looks pretty sweet to me!

joetama
02-06-2006, 11:57 PM
Does it?

ballstothewall
02-07-2006, 12:44 AM
It acutally does to me, I love the massive stack of drivers and how ****** it looks.

Makes me wish that I had one, and wasen't living in the dorm room.

brandontw
02-07-2006, 02:14 AM
Does it?don't hate... appreciate!:rolleyes:

brandontw
08-25-2006, 08:50 PM
Bringing this thread back to life....

i finished one of the speakers finally, i used black spray paint and clearcoat on the fronts and dark stain on all the sides and back...


http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1378/im001474ao6.jpg

dalucifer
08-25-2006, 08:54 PM
line arrays are so sweet..I wish i had the room fo rthem...

IamDeMan
08-26-2006, 12:05 PM
Nice work. I am still in my head scratching stage. I am getting wood soon though and going at it. So how is the response man? Loud? Quality?

Did you resin the cones?

brandontw
08-26-2006, 10:14 PM
Nice work. I am still in my head scratching stage. I am getting wood soon though and going at it. So how is the response man? Loud? Quality?

Did you resin the cones?

yes loud,

yes quality

yes i laquered the cones...it makes them look better as well as stiffening the cone


for the wood, if i may suggest MDF or high quality hardwood only, not pine boards from home depot. I still regret using those pines boards.... mdf would have been sweet. They would have been even heavier than they are, making them almost totally unweildy, but, it would have been worth it to save the headache, as well as making the finished product alot nicer.

thylantyr
08-27-2006, 01:42 AM
Crank some Slayer

I am getting wood soon

Don't get exited, it's just a hobby not naked girls :)

IamDeMan
08-27-2006, 10:37 AM
Crank some Slayer

I am getting wood soon

Don't get exited, it's just a hobby not naked girls :)
Yeah, but it's a hobby that makes speakers loud enough to blow womens clothes off.

/Napster from the italian job

skirch56
08-31-2006, 04:43 PM
Any idea where you can find the NSB speakers anymore, or do then not even exist.

ballstothewall
08-31-2006, 08:13 PM
Have to find them someone who has some that is willing to sell them. I would have some, but they don't fit my plans for the near future anymore so I didn't get any.

brandontw
09-01-2006, 02:14 AM
Any idea where you can find the NSB speakers anymore, or do then not even exist.
thylantyr (http://www.caraudio.com/forum/member.php?u=19775) might have some, but they will cost you, your prolly better off just finding an alternative speaker for the project (and by default, additional funding...nothin's as cheap as NSB's)

Fi Car Audio
09-01-2006, 02:23 AM
thylantyr... I second the musical selection :)

Line arrays do many things right. I am a big fan of them. I have a case of 60 3" Peerless full range drivers collecting dust in the warehouse for the day I find some time to cut a bunch of little holes in some MDF. I used the other case I had for a set of 8 foot line arrays in my old LA warehouse. Really surprising at how much bottom end they actually had... then you do the math and realise that the cone area is equivalent to an 15" sub.

Good work...

thylantyr
09-01-2006, 12:34 PM
thylantyr... I second the musical selection :)

Line arrays do many things right. I am a big fan of them. I have a case of 60 3" Peerless full range drivers collecting dust in the warehouse for the day I find some time to cut a bunch of little holes in some MDF. I used the other case I had for a set of 8 foot line arrays in my old LA warehouse. Really surprising at how much bottom end they actually had... then you do the math and realise that the cone area is equivalent to an 15" sub.

Good work...

My ported NSB's {49 cent drivers} knock stuff off the shelves. I was surprised
that an array of cheap drivers can sound sweet if you pay attention do the
details of the whole design. Most people dismiss the extra steps because they
assume the drivers aren't worth but it helps alot. Build a quality box as you
would if the drivers were expensive and you see the rewards of less box/sound
coloration. etc.

Cheap array = army of african ants {take down an elephant, lol }

dru
09-01-2006, 03:07 PM
fukk this thread. now i want to do some bad *** dorm room/apt set up

thylantyr
09-01-2006, 04:16 PM
fukk this thread. now i want to do some bad *** dorm room/apt set up


One idea is to make a stackable array where you make small cabinet sections and stack them
as needed.

Look at the Dali Megaline array as an example;
http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/7e15e580.jpg

See the three modular stacks?

You make one line array box for each channel, later as you feel the upgrade
itch, you stack another set on top, etc.

This gives you good sound now, can be upgraded as you evolve in audio,
and the modular design allows easy transport when you move.

Make some guide pin holes so the boxes don't move and fall on someone
causing death - lol