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View Full Version : System Setup w/ rear fill problem



azngotskills
01-09-2006, 05:04 AM
Ok...I know there arent many people who favor rear fill, but when I was in my 2000 celica i faded the music to the front and didnt like any sound coming from the back. I kind of like the surround sound feel b/c the rest of the car just feels empty. I know that no rear fill is optimal for a good sound stage, but it seems to me something is missing from behind. Ok this is what I was thinking:

HU: Eclipse 8454 (own)
Front: DLS UR6S (ordering)
Rear: DLS 226 coaxial or just midbass (thinking)
Sub: none (future)
Amps: Arc Audio KAR series (depending on setup)

I was wondering if anybody can give me some input on what i have put together regarding the rear fill and the amp selection? Also, i have seen many people run rear fill off the HU. I was wondering if underpowering those speakers would damage them? Any other comments are more than welcome and thanks for all the time put in.

bri487
01-09-2006, 05:08 AM
Ok...I know there arent many people who favor rear fill, but when I was in my 2000 celica i faded the music to the front and didnt like any sound coming from the back. I kind of like the surround sound feel b/c the rest of the car just feels empty. I know that no rear fill is optimal for a good sound stage, but it seems to me something is missing from behind. Ok this is what I was thinking:

HU: Eclipse 8454 (own)
Front: DLS UR6S (ordering)
Rear: DLS 226 coaxial or just midbass (thinking)
Sub: none (future)
Amps: Arc Audio KAR series (depending on setup)

I was wondering if anybody can give me some input on what i have put together regarding the rear fill and the amp selection? Also, i have seen many people run rear fill off the HU. I was wondering if underpowering those speakers would damage them? Any other comments are more than welcome and thanks for all the time put in.

i cant seem to remember if that eclipse has time alignment in it. but if it does put it to work. rear fill isnt bad, as long as you have it setup correctly. time alignment is the way to go though if you are doing rear fill.

azngotskills
01-09-2006, 05:17 AM
i cant seem to remember if that eclipse has time alignment in it. but if it does put it to work. rear fill isnt bad, as long as you have it setup correctly. time alignment is the way to go though if you are doing rear fill.

It does have time alignment, but should i do the coaxials or just get some of the midbass drivers.

bri487
01-09-2006, 05:24 AM
It does have time alignment, but should i do the coaxials or just get some of the midbass drivers.

what exactly do you mean? as far as time alingment, you should be able to set 4 channels. if you have more than a left and right rear channel, like say 4 speakers in the rear, i would split the difference or take the coaxial.

azngotskills
01-09-2006, 02:48 PM
what exactly do you mean? as far as time alingment, you should be able to set 4 channels. if you have more than a left and right rear channel, like say 4 speakers in the rear, i would split the difference or take the coaxial.

I meant should I get some coaxial speakers or midbass drivers for the rear (only one set in the rear). I havent played around with time alignment but i understand how it works and it seems pretty straight forward.

stones
01-09-2006, 02:50 PM
Some cheap *** "one way" speakers would do the job fine, no tweeters needed back there.

Dr. Dan
01-09-2006, 04:36 PM
Once a speaker starts getting into the 2khz(upper mids, lower treble) and higher range, it'll start really messing with the front soundstage and imaging. So stay away from anything with a tweeter, whether it's a coaxial or component.
You could go with a dedicated midbass, or use a component set woofer and crossover without hooking up the tweeter. If your amp or head unit has a crossover that goes that high, just sweep it back and forth between like 1K and 4K until it sounds best, lower will probably be better.
I posted a thread last week about using deep playing midbass drivers in the rear shelf.
AudioLife and others had some interesting stuff to say and posted some links. Look it up.
I think you could pick up some Vifa, Dayton, Adire etc.. woofers for $35 to $65 each that would be perfect. That's what I'm planning on doing.

azngotskills
01-09-2006, 09:44 PM
Once a speaker starts getting into the 2khz(upper mids, lower treble) and higher range, it'll start really messing with the front soundstage and imaging. So stay away from anything with a tweeter, whether it's a coaxial or component.
You could go with a dedicated midbass, or use a component set woofer and crossover without hooking up the tweeter. If your amp or head unit has a crossover that goes that high, just sweep it back and forth between like 1K and 4K until it sounds best, lower will probably be better.
I posted a thread last week about using deep playing midbass drivers in the rear shelf.
AudioLife and others had some interesting stuff to say and posted some links. Look it up.
I think you could pick up some Vifa, Dayton, Adire etc.. woofers for $35 to $65 each that would be perfect. That's what I'm planning on doing.

Thanks for the advice Dr. Dan very informative. Could i run these midbass drivers just off my HU woth 18 RMS?

bri487
01-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Once a speaker starts getting into the 2khz(upper mids, lower treble) and higher range, it'll start really messing with the front soundstage and imaging. So stay away from anything with a tweeter, whether it's a coaxial or component.
You could go with a dedicated midbass, or use a component set woofer and crossover without hooking up the tweeter. If your amp or head unit has a crossover that goes that high, just sweep it back and forth between like 1K and 4K until it sounds best, lower will probably be better.
I posted a thread last week about using deep playing midbass drivers in the rear shelf.
AudioLife and others had some interesting stuff to say and posted some links. Look it up.
I think you could pick up some Vifa, Dayton, Adire etc.. woofers for $35 to $65 each that would be perfect. That's what I'm planning on doing.

then, according to your theory, there is really no need for rear fill. rear fill can be done no matter what frequencies it plays. all you need to do is learn how to work with TA.

Dr. Dan
01-10-2006, 12:55 AM
Technically speaking, rear fill speakers are bad when playing stereo recordings. "Stereo" literally means "2". In the studio, the engineer uses 1 left and 1 right speaker to mix an album, and intends the recording to be heard with 2 speakers.
Surround Sound and an old format called Quad are really the only recordings meant to be heard with multi speaker setups.
But frankly the car is a terrible enviornment for listening to music. There are tons of bad reflections off the glass and other hard surfaces in the interior. Speakers aimed at your legs or straight up from the dash are crazy compared to the way speakers are aimed in a studio, home theater, or at a concert.
So my opinion is that since it's allready a crazy, messed up situation, screw some of the "rules", and do whatever sounds best to you.
But some rules still do apply. Higher frequencies cause more harm than mids and lows do in a rear fill. So just ditch the tweeter or roll off all the highs using a crossover.

Dr. Dan
01-10-2006, 01:07 AM
Could i run these midbass drivers just off my HU woth 18 RMS?

Usually Yes, but every driver is different. Some are much louder than others when run with the same wattage.
When you look at a driver's specs, look for sensitivity.
The higher that number, the better(louder).
Sensitivity ratings in the upper 80s or higher are usually considered good. High 90s or more is really really good, but not all that common.

azngotskills
01-10-2006, 02:59 AM
Usually Yes, but every driver is different. Some are much louder than others when run with the same wattage.
When you look at a driver's specs, look for sensitivity.
The higher that number, the better(louder).
Sensitivity ratings in the upper 80s or higher are usually considered good. High 90s or more is really really good, but not all that common.

Ok that clears some things up thanks. Currently looking at the Tang Band 6.5 midbasses but dont know if the 4ohm or 8ohm is better for my setup?

Dr. Dan
01-10-2006, 04:17 AM
4 ohm for car use. Especially if your running off headunit power.
8 ohm is mainly for home use, but can also work fine in a car with higher powered amps.

I'm considering trying one of these for rear fill:

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1373
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1306
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1038

bri487
01-10-2006, 06:28 AM
4 ohm for car use. Especially if your running off headunit power.
8 ohm is mainly for home use, but can also work fine in a car with higher powered amps.

I'm considering trying one of these for rear fill:

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1373
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1306
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1038

3 and 8 arent strictly home or car audio. subs come in all sorts of configurations. you need to remember though that if you use multiple speakers on one channel, then your ohm load is going to change.

azngotskills
01-10-2006, 12:14 PM
I'm considering trying one of these for rear fill:

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1373
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1306
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3101677.25613&pid=1038

I noticed that your considering vifa and seas drivers for rear fill. Do those vifa or seas drivers produce deep midbass providing they are ~5.25. The reason im asking is because i wont be using a subwoofer, so my rear fill will basically take care of the lows.

Dr. Dan
01-10-2006, 04:03 PM
I noticed that your considering vifa and seas drivers for rear fill. Do those vifa or seas drivers produce deep midbass providing they are ~5.25. The reason im asking is because i wont be using a subwoofer, so my rear fill will basically take care of the lows.

If you want big low end, it's a better bet to go with 6.5" or larger drivers.
I have a 12" sub that rattles my ride pretty good, and I'm trying to get a good amount of midbass from my frontstage, so I'm going for a more neutral sounding rear fill. Plus, it'll be easier to install in my car.

Bri487- I never said 8 ohm is strictly for home use. Azngotskills is using headunit power, so connecting an 8 ohm speaker will cut his power down to approximately 9 watts.

azngotskills
01-10-2006, 06:18 PM
Thanks for all your help Dan. Got any recommendations for 6.5 midbass driver with good low end?

Loud3
01-10-2006, 06:36 PM
Thanks for all your help Dan. Got any recommendations for 6.5 midbass driver with good low end?

(Answer Hijack!)

Adire Extremis 6.8

Just ask undercoverpunk.

I followed his recommendation, and am VERY pleased with the response.

Dr. Dan
01-10-2006, 07:36 PM
Yeah the Extremis was designed for big low end for sure.

I just stumbled upon a great set for running off a headunit:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5467424.9886&pid=1969
Single woofer:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=6239684.18856&pid=826
Check out the sensitivity on those.
I never heard 'em but Peerless makes good stuff generally.
God, I sound like a Madisound salesman :greedy:

Loud3
01-10-2006, 07:54 PM
Yeah the Extremis was designed for big low end for sure.

I just stumbled upon a great set for running off a headunit:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5467424.9886&pid=1969
Single woofer:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=6239684.18856&pid=826
Check out the sensitivity on those.
I never heard 'em but Peerless makes good stuff generally.
God, I sound like a Madisound salesman :greedy:



Agreed! Those 6.5's are pretty stout. I played around with some not too long ago.

azngotskills
01-11-2006, 12:41 AM
Agreed! Those 6.5's are pretty stout. I played around with some not too long ago.

How to they compare to these Tand Band 6.5: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-832