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View Full Version : How in the hell do you make Kick panels?



orangeblast
12-02-2005, 02:10 AM
I figure If i'm to get expensive speakers might as well do them right and get kick panels. I plan on putting the mid basses in the doors but a tweeter and midrange in the kick panel...this should be fine becuase I'm not looking for bass out of my mids and all..so any kick panel should be fine. But i have a new 2006 4runner and cannot find any kick panels to purchase for a stock look...anyone know where to get kick panels for this model ? or how do i make my own? i really would not want to go down the route but if I have to...I have to.

Beat_Dominator
12-02-2005, 02:14 AM
I'm not sure, but I think lasers and fish are involved........















:laugh: most kicks are made with fiberglass. You might search around here for general fiberglassing info (there are quite a few how-To's around). It's not all that hard.... takes time and it's intimidating. But the self gratification is worth it :)

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 02:47 AM
the search is your friend but since i'm so nice here you go. http://forums.caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?t=38665.

supa_c
12-02-2005, 02:55 AM
you put tape down, resin it, take out the mold, make a baffle and glue it to the mold, cover the whole thing in resin, put on body filler, sand and then put on whatever you want as a cover

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 03:27 AM
wow. I'd say i'm pretty intimidated. Could always have someone make some for me at a local shop...but ****....that will be alot of labor/money.

supa_c
12-02-2005, 03:33 AM
yes, its definetly not cheap

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 03:36 AM
yea it's a lot of work running a 3 way frontstage. i'd just say you get yourself a nice 2 way passive setup like a few suggested in that other thread. trust me i've heard a couple of really nice passive setups.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:01 AM
Yea...I'm really starting to think about it and I currently run 2 12's and a 2 way CDT HD 5.25 component set and honestly...it sounds great. So I can onlly imagine how some better speakers and a better HU will do me.

Plan on getting the CD8455 Eclipse vs. my current HX-D10 Clarion...rather aged I'd say. And I'm really considering going with either Dynaudio or DLS for the speakers. I could easy surface mount my tweeter and aim it where I need to using the stock kick panels with my new 4runner. Pretty much what I have now with my CDTs ( i own a 97 4runner right now) only with more experience now...I will deffinitly change the tweeter placement and angle and maybe I can some how make a angled mounting bracket thus alowing the Midbass to be aimed straight and up a bit for better stage and imaging.

With my new car I just wanted to do some different stuff but I really don't want to go over my head on this and screw stuff up....not to mention go over my budget heh...after all I would have some car payments.

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 04:07 AM
also look into the seas lotus reference series. awesome set. super detailed tweeter. i mean i loved iridium tweet but the reference tweet is awesome. this set goes for around $750. thats around the budget you have. Or you can just buy the mids and tweets and run active off of the eclipse.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:14 AM
where do you buy Seas Lotus anyways? I've never heard of them nor have I seen them online for purchase.


Look **** nice though...i'm looking at their website. Look like SQ speakers for sure.

supa_c
12-02-2005, 04:18 AM
www.madisound.com ?

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 04:18 AM
you could purchase them at mobilesq.com. I've met the people that run that site and they are awesome guys who know their shiet. if you want more opinions regarding seas lotus i'd go to elitecaraudio.com. i've listened to the reference set myself and i must say they were awesome. so clean and warm. i loved it. i wish i had money to buy some.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:20 AM
Did I have that right though? As far as mounting a 2 way system....I could put the tweeter in the stock location and aim it upwards towards the passanger and driver dome light...or the rear view mirror. And leave the midbass in the door pointed straight like the stock speaker was?

would I want to do that with such hi end 2 ways??

Plus its cool becuase I wouldn't have to change amps to push those speakers. My DEI would do 125x2 thus saving me money. I wouldn't have to buy another amp. I would a perfect amount of money for my Eclipse ...wiring...sound deadening stuff and some amaizng 2 ways!

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 04:28 AM
i believe so. you should place the tweets around your car using double sided tape and see where it sounds best and place it there. a popular place to put tweets is the a-pillar area.

also if you are interested in the seas lotus reference set and i see that you are in socal, pm gsteg, i think he's running the reference set right now in his car and maybe he can give you a listen. or even ask some questions, etc. but i would suggest if you are going to spend that kind of cash, you should at least try to go to a local shop or so and listen to some of those sets.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:36 AM
where exactly is the a-pillar area?

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 04:39 AM
http://www.lincoln.com/zephyr/img/main_int_9.jpg

that lil area on the upper left corner, its actually touching the corner of the picture.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:47 AM
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8760/0c41sq.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0c41sq.jpg)

like this??

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 04:48 AM
wait I think I know what you mean...where the windshield is?

wouldn't that be to far from the mids? Always thought you were suppose to keep the tweeter and mids together

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 04:56 AM
well the reason people want the mid as close to the tweeter as possible is for of course blending well together but also for use of time alignment. placing the mid as close to the tweet is mostly for people who run a passive setup but for those who run an active setup, its just a matter of placing the tweeter to where it sounds best and then it could time aligned correctly.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 09:49 AM
so you could move the tweet around when running an Active setup and just tune from there eh? wow...talk about alot of listening. I could see how one would deffinitly want to be turned on by an active setup. I could only imagine the amount of human saturation of sound there would be. I bet it would be exhausting to just sit there and listen...tune...listen...tune...listen...tune. But in the long run...sure its alot more woth it.

However, in my situation...I don't want to lay money down for another amp...or a 4 channel amp to be exact. Maybe in the future..but for now..I guess I'll go with passive and run my DEI 2 channel.



I also noticed that you can get silk or aluminum tweeters with a Sea Lotus Reference 2 way....whats better? I always thought the metal tweets were really harsh and brittle.

whats the difference anyways?

GSteg
12-02-2005, 11:31 AM
Since it's too long to PM (I tried), i'll just copy and paste here:

My speakers are now moved into my house for home audio, because I got into a car accident back in september and I haven't gotten a replacement car yet. I actually went with full active instead of using the passives. Reason being that I have the alpine PXA-H701 with is a very flexible using, allowing me to go active.

I've heard them with passive crossovers though and they sounds very very nice. A friend of mine has Seas Lotus in his car and he ran passives during the 2005 IASCA national finals and placed 2nd in his class, which isn't bad since it was his first time competing and no real tuning was done. :D

3-way setups are harder to setup due to having too many drivers, where errors can be made easily. A good 2-way setup will outperform an okay 3-way. Honestly, most people wouldn't even be able to tell a difference between 2-way and 3-way as far as clarity.

I really do enjoy these. When dropped into the car, they sound pretty good, but the real deal is when you tune them. Voices will sound basically real and you'll hear details that you never have. These are very revealing speakers and are not as forgiving as the CDT HD-series. Revealing as in they will play whatever is on the CD. If the recording is bad, it will play bad. If they recording is great, it will play great. It doesn't sugar coat the sound like the CDT will. It does what it's suppose to do.

The lotus reference midrange is based on the Seas Excel Magnesium. The same driver that is heavily used in home audio, especially in $10k+ setups due to their details. The lotus mid is basically a 4ohm version, 6.5" in size version of the seas excel mag. If you haven't already, take a look at this review.

http://forums.caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128519

btw, where are you located in orange county? If you want, I can try to get you to listen to the lotus in a friend's car (Seas Lotus sales rep). He's works in Pasadena, but sometimes he comes down here. This way, you can get an idea of how they sound.

GSteg
12-02-2005, 11:37 AM
so you could move the tweet around when running an Active setup and just tune from there eh? wow...talk about alot of listening. I could see how one would deffinitly want to be turned on by an active setup. I could only imagine the amount of human saturation of sound there would be. I bet it would be exhausting to just sit there and listen...tune...listen...tune...listen...tune. But in the long run...sure its alot more woth it.

It's normal if you've been tuning your system for weeks. A lot of guys I know are still tuning, even though they got their system in over a year ago. Tuning can never be done. Not to say they will never sound good, but there is always room to improve.



I also noticed that you can get silk or aluminum tweeters with a Sea Lotus Reference 2 way....whats better? I always thought the metal tweets were really harsh and brittle.

whats the difference anyways?

If you've ever heard a well built metal tweeter, you'll find that they aren't harsh at all. If I cover up the silk and metal tweeter, you'd think they are both silk. It's that smooth. No hints of harshness unless you aim them wrong or boost the EQ at 4khz by 12db. lol.

The silk are just a tad bit smoother, but the aluminum has a better top end extention. Really, it's your pick. :) I have the silk and have heard the aluminums. I couldn't be happier with either one.

GSteg
12-02-2005, 11:43 AM
Lastly, since you're getting that eclipse deck, you have room to go active. That deck is enough for you to go active. Davie, the one who was trying to sell you the DLS, has that deck also and he's about to go run active (using my seas lotus reference tweeters and lotus performance midrange). Simply using 4-channel of power is all you need.

Honestly, here is what I would do. Go ditch the passive crossover.

The passive crossovers are worth/cost $200 alone. The whole set is about $745 or so. You are able to buy the tweeters and midrange separately, instead of having to buy the whole set. This means it'll cost about $530 or so for the drivers. Invest that $200 in a 4-channel amp and then sell your DEI amp for however much it's worth. Or just sell the amp and use the money with $200 and buy something even better.

This way, you're paying for the same amount as the actual lotus set, but you're running active. The only reason why I recommend this set is because your deck is capable of doing active. Save you money and time down the line. That is, if you rather have a passive system :)

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 02:58 PM
Interesting. What would be the best amp for the job?

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 03:45 PM
I like the DLS amps and Arc Audio XXk line.

GSteg
12-02-2005, 03:59 PM
Basically any amp with enough power will suffice. Buy the amp for quality.

With that being said, you're better off finding deals on used amps. $200 wont get you much of an amp (power-wise). I'd look got 100x4@4ohm, just for headroom.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 06:34 PM
I noticed that the tweeter in the lotus reference series is 6 ohms...how do I manage that if i'm running a 4 ohm amp?? confused.


having trouble finding a 100x4 channel amp. Highest I've seen yet is 85x4@4ohm. And also can you explain how the tweeter wont recieve a full 100 watts if going active? I don't understand that one.

GSteg
12-02-2005, 07:13 PM
If you use the tweeter on the amp, the amp will see a 6ohm norminal load. Theoretically, the amp should send 75w at most. This is far more than you need.


85x4@4ohm is fine, unless you really need more power. I've gotten away with 60x4@4ohm and was plenty loud.

Your tweeters will not receive a full 100w before that 100w rating is at 4ohm, at a specific frequency, with a specific input voltage and power voltage. Think of an amp as a car's engine. You see cars with 250hp as advertised, but that's just peak. Throughout the RPM, the power will vary with torque.

The power the tweeters will receive depends on the voltage the amp gets, and the frequency.

Take a look at second graph of the Dayton RS-series tweeters:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/275-130g.pdf


The resistance is dependent on frequency. The higher impedence, the less power the tweeters will see, so it only makes sense that the tweeters will never see constant power unless you put test tones to it. Music is made up of dynamics response. You see graphs where the frequency response is all zig-zags. Thats what makes music, music. Frequency and output changes all the time.

Active or passive, your tweeters will behave the same way as far as how much power is being received (except for passives where a Zobel and/or notch filter is introduced).

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 07:21 PM
yea what gsteg said, :p: .

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 07:32 PM
Ok cool...I understand now.

my main concern thus far is tweeter placement...where the hell would I put such a great tweeter such as the reference one? I mean to make things really easy on myself I could stick them in the stock tweeter position...see the pic. This pic of the door of the 2006 4runner....



http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0c41sq.jpg


would that work or would I still want to some how put them in the stock kick panel area and aim the tweeters upwards towards the driver/passanger dome light?

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 08:06 PM
i think that aint a bad spot to the the tweeters. I mean the tweeters will be pointing straight into the center of the cabin. you would like a nice centerstage. but like i said earlier, just start placing the tweeter at a number of spots and find out whats best and figure out a way how to make the install clean. i mean i've seen many people who put their tweeters on the dash pointing upwards at an angle into the center of the cabin and it sounded great.

supa_c
12-02-2005, 08:28 PM
I like the DLS amps and Arc Audio XXk line.
JAZN has a DLS A4 and A5 ( ultimate series)
Those are some sick looking amps. Pics just dont do a justice. I wanted to pawn them since he left them in my garage...:up2somet:

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 08:35 PM
JAZN has a DLS A4 and A5 ( ultimate series)
Those are some sick looking amps. Pics just dont do a justice. I wanted to pawn them since he left them in my garage...:up2somet:

not only does it look great, they perform great. i heard an a6 run off a ID Max. wow is all i can say.

supa_c
12-02-2005, 08:37 PM
I didnt get to hear the stereo, didnt have enough time.
It was all active too

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 09:08 PM
those DLS amps look cool..but I do prefer to get a 100x4 or at least an 80x4 or something.

Blunt
12-02-2005, 09:13 PM
kx800.4 can be had on ebay for a lil over 200 nice amp 100 x 4 @ 4 ohms most birthsheets i have seen make it more like 125 x 4 @ 4 ohms

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 09:43 PM
thats kicker?

I always thought that kicker was BLEAH...for SQ and stuff....

what is the general feelilng about kicker?

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 10:05 PM
If I wanted to purchase just the Reference series from MobileSQ.com they don't sell the individual speakers in pairs do they??

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 10:07 PM
yea they do. http://www.mobilesq.com/store/index.php?cPath=27_30_23

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 10:11 PM
but it asks you for the qty. and there is no mention that they sell them in pairs anywhere. and if i leave the qty. at 1 my total w/ out shipping or tax comes to 255. thats way cheap! Just didn't make sense given the full kit is around 750 or so.

alphakenny1
12-02-2005, 10:18 PM
just checked it out for you and they sell each speaker for the price listed. so click on add cart for the reference tweeter and in quanity put two and update it. and then do the same for the reference woofer. the total should come out to be $530 plus shipping.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 10:21 PM
okay Just wanted to make sure. It would have ****** to get like....4 heh.

orangeblast
12-02-2005, 10:38 PM
if you had to choose would you get the silk or aluminum dome tweeters? This may seem stupid...but I've always used silk...and almost am leaning towards the aluminum domes. Is there really a benefit to the aluminums?

GSteg
12-02-2005, 10:51 PM
Orangeblast, what city are you in? If you're close enough from me, I can get my sales rep to come down here so you won't have to pay for shipping (if he has time).

If you have any questions about sales contact [email protected] .


As far as fabric vs. aluminum, the fabric seems to be the favorite for most people. As I said before, a buddy of mine placed 2nd in his class at the IASCA finals running passives AND having the mids and tweeters in stock location of his bmw 325i.

The aluminum does have benefits, such as better off-axis response (maybe good for stock location) and better top end extention. Details are much more crisp. Some people like it, some dont. :)

supa_c
12-03-2005, 02:26 AM
If you like to go deaf metal dome can do that.
Or horns

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 03:11 AM
what do you mean by deaf metal? Like it can get really loud? and its good with metal music? heh..

supa_c
12-03-2005, 03:13 AM
forgot the comma
metal tweeters with metal music makes sense

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 03:19 AM
The aluminum does have benefits, such as better off-axis response (maybe good for stock location) and better top end extention. Details are much more crisp. Some people like it, some dont. :)



Can you explain a bit more on what you mean here. I'm certainly aiming towards a metal tweeter. Silks are what I've used for some time now and they are good and all...just woudln't want that brittle sound...if the aluminums do not have brittle sound then that would be a good thing.


by the way...I live in Fullerton.

supa_c
12-03-2005, 03:49 AM
Gsteg, where abouts are you located ?

azbass
12-03-2005, 10:13 AM
I figure If i'm to get expensive speakers might as well do them right and get kick panels. .

not true

GSteg
12-03-2005, 10:57 AM
I'm in Westminster, ca



The Aluminum versions do not have that harshness or heavy metallic sound like most other metal dome tweeters. Even their home audio 27tbfcg series are aluminum, yet you wouldn't think they're aluminum because they are **** smooth and won't fatigue your ears. That is unless you use the wrong crossover settings.

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 03:31 PM
well that about sums it up. I will go with the aluminums. But like you've said its all about the tunning. That would be the next part. what would be a really good start position for tunning a set of Sea Louts References when using the eclipse....

also...if the Eclipse has Xovers and such.... and my Amps have Xovers....which one takes over? Figure sound will Xover from the HU first then the signal will go to the amps and Xover again......is this right?

alphakenny1
12-03-2005, 03:45 PM
no if you are going with a 2 way frontstage put the crossovers on your amp as "all pass" or "off." you'll do all the crossover stuff through your HU. I believe that most amps don't have a bandpass option so you can't bandpass your mids on your amp. It's nice also because the eclipse has real time adjustment, meaning when you change something tuning wise (i.e. EQ, crossver and time alignment) you can turn up the volume while changing these settings while most HUs you have to return to the main menu to turn up the volume.

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 03:56 PM
I went out and checked my amps...and Didn't see any kind of "off" switch for the crossovers. The sub amp had no off switch at all...my 2 channel had a Flat switch...but neither had a crossover off switch.

??

alphakenny1
12-03-2005, 03:58 PM
well on the amp there should three options: LP, HP, and off. maybe the off option is not indicated and might be blank or in the middle between LP and HP. check your manual, btw what amp is it?

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 04:14 PM
The older version of the DEI amps...

125x2 and a 1100D Mono amp

alphakenny1
12-03-2005, 04:19 PM
ic. odd. well if you planning to go active you need a 4 channel amp.

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 04:23 PM
what about my sub amp. the 125x2 will be replaced by a 4 channel. but i plan on keeping my dei 1100 amp

alphakenny1
12-03-2005, 04:32 PM
sub amp is fine, just get a 4 channel if you want to go active.

orangeblast
12-03-2005, 04:36 PM
ok...then i should b good o go!

supa_c
12-03-2005, 08:04 PM
I'm in Westminster, ca



The Aluminum versions do not have that harshness or heavy metallic sound like most other metal dome tweeters. Even their home audio 27tbfcg series are aluminum, yet you wouldn't think they're aluminum because they are **** smooth and won't fatigue your ears. That is unless you use the wrong crossover settings.
eeek, thats way down <there>
JAZN is really close you.
Titanium is isially associated with "hars" tweeters. It also depends on who makes it. Not every metal dome tweeter will be harsh.
Different producer= different sound

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 12:13 AM
whats a good amp company to be looking at for the Reference series?

and why exactly DON'T I need 100x4 to be O.K. to run these speakers?

GSteg
12-04-2005, 12:24 AM
and why exactly DON'T I need 100x4 to be O.K. to run these speakers?


Like I explained before. The speakers will not be getting 100w at all, at least not constantly. Music is dynamic.

If you ever measured the output of most amp when driving tweeters, don't be surprise that the tweeters see less than 10w.

I have less than 8w going to my tweeters in home and believe me, they get loud, standing over 10ft away..

You only need a lot of power if you want headroom, but for the most part, most people won't even reach the amp's full potential in an SQ setup.

supa_c
12-04-2005, 12:26 AM
Yep.
Unless you send your speakers tones thats the only way they would recieve full power

alphakenny1
12-04-2005, 01:08 AM
as for amps, what is your budget? i'm guessing it's a decent amount since it seems like you are going to purchase the seas lotus reference. but like i said earlier look into DLS and Arc Audio XXK line.

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 02:25 AM
well......good question heh..I tend to work in this way: If I believe it worth it or even convinced that its worth it...then I'll buy it.

So as for a budget...well its flexible. If I believe and convinced that this xxx for channel amp will be perfect to partner up with the reference series then I'll buy it.

i know its odd...but that kind of how I work

GSteg
12-04-2005, 02:38 AM
How is this:

http://www.cardomain.com/item/ROCT8004

Some guy is selling it for $350 shipped in mint condition.

rated at 50x4@4ohm, but it actually does ~170x4@4ohm. Talk about being underrated.

The amp is a beast, regardless of what people say. LOTS of power for dynamic range. Can't go wrong with it, especially for the price of $350 shipped.

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 03:17 AM
wholly hell thats a beefy amp. How do you know when an amp is underrated?

also found that the Reference series are about 100 rms and I believe 250 max. I maybe wrong on this...but if I recall from along time ago when I was learning about basic caraudio stuff....when amp output gets closer to a speakers max wattage...you get more distortion....is this true?

GSteg
12-04-2005, 03:28 AM
There is a birthsheet that comes with the rockford amp. It's also been verified through a 3rd party member too.

Max rating is a made up number. You get more distortion the louder you crank up your speakers, but this doesn't mean it's always bad distortion. It's natural for mids to introduce more distortion as you crank up the volume (THD rises). This distortion in many case, are not the same as if the amp was clipping. You'll get to the point where it's loud enough.

supa_c
12-04-2005, 03:54 AM
Those amps are really really big.
Prob the only reason why i would never get one.

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 03:57 AM
http://www.dls.se/english/index.htm

should be a good choie?

http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/amplifiers/xxk_4150.htm


the arc audio looks like it would even be a better choice. rated at 80x4@4ohms so, I'm sure that its underrated some how...possibly....can really do 100+ x4@4ohms...??

also....and lets say I didn't get an Eclipse HU....what would be another really good SQ deck I could go with to do Active??

and any idea what eclipse has in store for 2006?

supa_c
12-04-2005, 04:00 AM
you cant hyperlink on DLS's site

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 04:13 AM
The DLS ULTIMATE A4 - The Big Four

But I really am liking that Arc Audio one.


also its odd...i'm not seeing to many "bypass" or "off" switches on amps to run an Active setup and use my HU for xover. strange.

and we still agree that an Eclipse cd8455 would be a better choice for 2ways than a DRZ9255 clarion....right? only cuse I found one for 650. MINT.

supa_c
12-04-2005, 04:45 AM
Its a nice amp. $540 or something close to that for the DLS IIRC
You just set the amps to "full" on the filter
In the DLS manual it says that you use the X2 and X3 buttons if you are running an active setup

alphakenny1
12-04-2005, 05:38 AM
usually it won't specifically say in the features area if the amp has an full, off switch for the crossover. its usually a given. i haven't used the clarion myself but i love my eclipse.

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 01:59 PM
650 for a used MINT clean condition DRZ9255.....it would be a great purchase.....but given i'm only doing 2 way...don't know if it would now be dumb to get it

alphakenny1
12-04-2005, 03:11 PM
i haen't heard the clarion myself like i said earlier but there are a couple of things feature wise that the eclipse has that the clarion doesn't. the clarion doesn't support mp3 and also the clarion only has a 5 band parametric eq while the eclipse has a 10 band. SQ wise i can't tell you which one is better because like i said ihaven't heard the clarion.

orangeblast
12-04-2005, 11:29 PM
well to answer that....I have a zen touch 40 gig that I would prefer to use through an auxiliary connection. And 5 and vs. 10 band eq doesn't seem like a truly big deal...

I like the Clarion's classy no frills face and image. what else does the eclipse have that I just don't need....a crazy graphic on the front. and the chrome look. I like the all dark face of the clarion.

only thing is...whats Eclipse have instore for us this year coming up in 2006?