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jaygeorge1979
11-05-2005, 02:24 PM
alright guys i need some more help here...i have been browsing over alot of the DIY projects lately and i cant figure out how these ppl design the crossovers...i understnad how to build them ( i am an engineering student) but i cant figure out how they can choose a driver and know:

A. How to design the box, how big, seperate chambers, etc
B. How to design a crossover that fits the speaker perfectly

anybody wanna take a stab at teaching me?

thylantyr
11-05-2005, 03:36 PM
You need to buy a book to get the general idea, the topic is too advanced to cover in
one post.

Pick a random midwoofer from PE with charts and maybe we can give you a
though process on how to tackle the crossover issue, simplified.

If you really want to expedite your learning, do this;

1. Buy a woofer.
2. Buy a midwoofer.
3. Buy a tweeter.
5. Buy a Behringer DCX2496.
6. Buy 1 amplifier channel, full range.

This will be a test bench rig so you can learn FAST on what goes on.
I can guarantee that you will understand if you follow my lead.

jaygeorge1979
11-05-2005, 05:14 PM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-145

i chose this audax midwoofer cuz it looked kool...it has all the charts on there, so if someone could enlighten me :)

also, i have been looking at the passive crossover explanation on the12volt.com, and it has cleared a little of it up, but im still no understanding why to build them certain ways depending on which speaker you get...anyone?

thx thylantyr

jaygeorge1979
11-05-2005, 05:16 PM
You need to buy a book to get the general idea, the topic is too advanced to cover in
one post.

Pick a random midwoofer from PE with charts and maybe we can give you a
though process on how to tackle the crossover issue, simplified.

If you really want to expedite your learning, do this;

1. Buy a woofer.
2. Buy a midwoofer.
3. Buy a tweeter.
5. Buy a Behringer DCX2496.
6. Buy 1 amplifier channel, full range.

This will be a test bench rig so you can learn FAST on what goes on.
I can guarantee that you will understand if you follow my lead.

how much am i looking at spending? what is a behringer DCX2496? wouldnt i also need to get crossover parts/etc? how about a box?

thch
11-05-2005, 06:57 PM
typically there are 3 engineering methods to use:

1.) get drivers that have a large overlap in bandwidth, then use a simple filter.
2.) use a complex, steep filter with speakers that have little overlap in bandwidth.
3.) use modeling software to find a middle ground for speakers with some overlap using moderatly complex filters.

from here, the crossover points are chosen based upon driver performance. drivers have well-known issues at both high frequencies (beaming, breakup) and low (overexcursion, T/S model). these issues help to define usable bandwidth. for instance, a speaker may have an excelent response up to 3khz, but then have a terrible response at 4khz. this means that even with a steep filter, the cutoff may need to be 2khz.

generally, filters should be below 300hz and above 3khz. 300-3khz is the most important band for voice recognition. this is only a loose rule though. i've used filters at 2khz with no issues.

thylantyr
11-05-2005, 07:48 PM
how much am i looking at spending? what is a behringer DCX2496? wouldnt i also need to get crossover parts/etc? how about a box?

DCX2496 is a digital crossover. $250 shipped.
Amplifier - you choose.
Drivers {individual speakers} - you choose

Get a cheap dome tweeter, cheap midrange to start the learning process.
Connect the DCX to your source and the speaker to your amplifier and play
with the digital crossover so you can understand what happens when you
change settings.

http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

For DIY, I only use 'active systems', one without passive crossover because it's
elite. :cool:

For business, it's not practical to design an 'active loudspeaker' system, but
they do exist. It's more economical to do passive crossover design and just
hook up the speaker to an amp.

But, many DIY loudspeakers are passive crossover based too.

I prefer complete control over the drivers in loudspeaker design, hence all
active system so I can change settings.

You could develop on an active test bench to find the best settings then try
to make a passive crossover to mimick performance.

thylantyr
11-05-2005, 09:45 PM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-145

i chose this audax midwoofer cuz it looked kool...it has all the charts on there, so if someone could enlighten me :)

also, i have been looking at the passive crossover explanation on the12volt.com, and it has cleared a little of it up, but im still no understanding why to build them certain ways depending on which speaker you get...anyone?

thx thylantyr

Everyone has their approach to loudspeaker design. My metho involves more
listening to drivers than measuring them .. because in the end, I plan to listen
to them not measure them -- :laugh:

I prefer a top-down approach to loudspeaker design. Start with tweeters and
work down.... because an excellent tweeter is harder to get than mids. After
you find 'your magic tweeter', find the matching midwoofer and so forth.

The frequency response for that midwoofer {midrange/woofer} you linked is
fine;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/296-145g.pdf

Since my preference for audio is to use a tweeter that can perform well with
a 2khz crossover, maybe as low as 1.5khz using a steeper slope like 8th order,
we need a midwoofer than can play in this region well, with good SQ and
no nasty frequency response anomies like cone breakup modes in this region or
even higher.

The next question to ask. Does the midwoofer sensitivity mate well with your
tweeter? That midwoofer says 84dB sensitivity which is very low and inefficient.
Second, xmax is rated for 2.7mm so you need to understand that high excursion
isn't really possible with this midwoofer.

If you use a tweeter with higher sensitivity then make arranges by designing
an L-pad into the design to make sure you have a tweeter volume control to
attenuate the treble.

If you use an all active system, driver sensitivity matching is moot as you
will adjust levels on the source side.

What I like to do is make a list of driver candidates for a design and buy one
of each and hook them up to listen to them, this will be the final judging phase
on which one to choose. If you listen to enough tweeters and midranges,
you start visualizing in your mind on which ones mate better to certain drivers.

jaygeorge1979
11-06-2005, 05:52 PM
wow...that really helped alot

is there anything about a tweeter that would make me want to use an 8th order crossover at 1.5kHz for the tweeter, or are you just saying that is what you prefer? once you decide 8th order 1.5khz, is there a calculator out there that tells you what value capacitor to use?

how about for the midrange...if i want it to play freq between 300Hz and 3kHz, how do you figure out how to design that crossover?

i am still trying to figure out if there are any characteristics of certain speakers or brands that help you figure out WHERE you want to cross it over...i understand that once you know what tweeter you are using, you want the mid to overlap...but how to figure out if that frequency for the tweeter is efficient for THAT tweeter?

UndercoverPunk
11-06-2005, 06:13 PM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-145

i chose this audax midwoofer cuz it looked kool...

Just for future referance, please don't ever choose anything audio based upon looks.;)

ballstothewall
11-06-2005, 06:22 PM
Just for future referance, please don't ever choose anything audio based upon looks.;)


You mean my audiobahn chrome flamed subs don't hit 189db's? What?....Liar!

jaygeorge1979
11-06-2005, 06:36 PM
haha...i know...i just needed to pick one so that someone could explain to me how the system of deciding on crossovers works...which, i still dont quite get...see previous questions...

ballstothewall
11-06-2005, 06:41 PM
Here is something thylantyr said in one of his posts helping me design my line array... Main thing is the link.


Or would it be better to make my own? I can solder, I just don't know anything about making a crossover.

I think it would be better.

read this and tell me what you think.
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=227180

the passive crossover design will make or break that system so
you need to choose the tweeter, ideally find one with response graphs
to determine best crossover region to use then plan a strategy.

Linkwitz Riley slopes are just better for SQ, i'd use those, but
the LR 24dB/octave is more complicated to build and cost more
because it has more parts.


It has some good information and calculators on there, I found it helpful

-Ryan

PV Audio
11-06-2005, 06:50 PM
link is out

ballstothewall
11-06-2005, 07:02 PM
Link Fixed

jaygeorge1979
11-06-2005, 07:31 PM
wow...that IS beneficial...is the Linkwitz-Riley crossover the regular one that most ppl use?

i didnt know that all you needed to calculate crossovers was speaker impedance...thought it would be more complicated

i cant figure out how i would use taht calculator for a bandpass crossover for a midwoofer...say i wanted to filter out freq below 300 hz and above 2khz...how would i do that?

jaygeorge1979
11-06-2005, 09:24 PM
ok...i just now figured out what the freq response for that midwoofer was by looking at the graph...so ur saying since this woofer plays well over 2khz that it would blend well with a tweeter which you are saying should use a 2khz crossover...then (theoretically) i would want to find a woofer that plays well up to preferably over 200hz cuz lower than taht is where the midwoofer drops off...right?

jaygeorge1979
11-07-2005, 03:19 PM
DCX2496 is a digital crossover. $250 shipped.
Amplifier - you choose.
Drivers {individual speakers} - you choose

Get a cheap dome tweeter, cheap midrange to start the learning process.
Connect the DCX to your source and the speaker to your amplifier and play
with the digital crossover so you can understand what happens when you
change settings.

http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

You could develop on an active test bench to find the best settings then try
to make a passive crossover to mimick performance.

how exactly does this test bench work? would i have to build the box to specification first, then install the speakers without crossovers and hook it up to the active crossover? cuz they would need to be in a box in order to do testing, right? then i would have to uninstall the drivers, build the passive crossovers, and reinstall everything....is this what u are saying?

thylantyr
11-07-2005, 05:09 PM
how exactly does this test bench work? would i have to build the box to specification first, then install the speakers without crossovers and hook it up to the active crossover? cuz they would need to be in a box in order to do testing, right? then i would have to uninstall the drivers, build the passive crossovers, and reinstall everything....is this what u are saying?

A bare bones setup would be;

Portable CD player [headphone jack output] -> DCX2496 -> amplifier of your
choosing.

A better setup would be;
Home CD player [or universal DVD player] -> AV receiver [for volume control] ->
DCX - amplifier.

Put these items on a table and that is your test bench.

Buy a driver and connected it directly to the amplifier. If the driver is a tweeter
or midrnage, just leave it there sitting on the table. If you want to test bass
performance, make a test box for the midwoofer or woofers. If you want to hear
the high frequency performance, you don't really need a box. You could make
a box too to mimick a more realistic scneario.

Verify the DCX setttings for the particular driver [ie, connect the high pass output to the amp for tweeters, connect the midrange output for midrange, or connect the bass output for woofers.

Turn on the system and listen to familiar music. Prop up the driver [if it's not
in a box] to hear it on axis far away, up close, whatever. Change DCX settings
to hear what happens to the sound.

/easy

For tweeters, determine what might be a good crossover starting point
and use a 24dB slope, lets say start at 2khz. Skew the crossover higher,
as high as you want to hear what happens. But don't go too low as you
might damage the tweeters, it's a judgement call. To protect tweeters from
excess power insert an inline AGC 1A fuse. Select different filter types and slopes and sweep the frequency range to understand what sound you
are getting from each scenario. Think of it as a blind date.

For midranges or midwoofers, the audition is more complex as there are
more scenarios to try out. You should do a battery of listening tests to
determine what the driver can and can't do for you. Think of it as a second
blind date to determine how many holes are accessible :veryhapp:

For example, a midrange driver in a normal design will have two crossovers,
a high pass and a low pass. The high pass cuts out of the bass, the low pass
cuts out the treble, it's essentially a band-pass crossover. If it's a midwoofer
the bandpass may be 80hz - 2khz. This is a generic region. If you use a pure
midrnage the region might be 300hz - 2khz as pure midrange drivers offer no
bass so you need to filter out the bass by raising the crossover point otherwise
you can damage the driver with over-excursion.

So.. you have this midwoofer or midranges on the table with no box, playing
in some bandpass frequency range. First thing you notice is there is no bass
because the driver is free air. Don't worry about it, ignore it. Focus on midrange
sound quality only. Off axis, on axis, different SPL levels, different crossover frequencies/slopes. Ignore the fact that there is no tweeters or woofers playing
and thing about how natural the voices sound and instruments.

To make the test more interesting, disable the low pass section of the crossover
so the midrange plays 'wide open' on the top end, meaning you aren't crossing
out the treble. Listen for the nasty breakup modes and how they annoy you
OR not. If your crossover is flexible, you can just raise the crossover point from
... lets say 2khz to 20khz and this will mimick not using a low pass. The DCX
allows this.

Later, you want to test the bass performance of your midrange so you make a
test box, sealed, ported, whatever. Put the midrange in the box and change
the high pass crossover setting. You can set it very low, like 20hz to mimick
no high pass crossover to see what the driver does as you raise power. Most likely the bass will cause cone over-excursion which will damage the driver.

Raise the 20hz setting higher in increments until you think it sounds good
and has less excursion that raises it's power handling.

At the same time, try tweaking the low pass crossover to check how the driver
sounds in a box vs. free air or open baffle.

For woofers, you need a test box and all you do is change the low pass
setting.

Tweeters are easy,
midranges are easy too but will require a test box if you want to listen to it's
bass performance.
Woofers need a test box otherwise the audition is invalid.

Listen to 20 different tweeters, midranges, and woofers, spend a few months
everyday doing this and eventually you can mix and match combinations
of drivers based on your auditioning memory.

The ideal scenario is to find drivers that have less problems 'out of the box' so you DON'T have
to EQ them as it makes your job is integrating them easier.

jaygeorge1979
11-07-2005, 10:05 PM
thanks so much for all the help your giving me...i only have one more question for you right now...i dont have an amplifier, except for my mini system...30 watts per channel boom box type thing, with seperate speakers...i cant figure out how i would hook it up...if i test one speaker at a time, like your suggesting, then i can (one output from the DCX2496 and one input on the stereo...would this be acceptable? or do i need to get JUST an amplifier with a few channels...can i do multiple speakers at the same time? otherwise, how would i be able to tell which tweets/mids/woofers sound good together?

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 12:22 AM
You have to feed your amplifier a low level signal via an RCA cable. If your boom
box has no RCA input to your amplifier then you are out of luck.

To listen to a driver being tested all you need is one signal from a stereo setup,
pick left or right, and feed this into the DCX input, left or right input, and drive
one amplifier channel only.

can i do multiple speakers at the same time?

That is why active rules. You can run your whole system this way permanently
and have the ability to tweak it forever.

A 3 way loudspeaker would need a 6 channel amp to do this.
two channels for tweeters {left + right}
two channels for mids {left + right}
two channels for woofers {left + right}

If you are making a 2 way, then you need 4 amp channels.

The subwoofer is considered a seperate unit not part of this discussion.

Since the DCX is a 3 way device, you can make a 2 way floor stander and
use the 3rd output for your subwoofer as you can sum the left and right channels.

otherwise, how would i be able to tell which tweets/mids/woofers sound good together?

When you reach Sith Lord status it's easier to visualize driver integration.

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 01:14 AM
wow...awesome...i noticed that the inputs/outputs are XLR..at least i think they are...does that mean i gotta get a direct box to convert:

1/8" stereo mini --> quarter inch adapter --> Direct box --> XLR cable?

cuz all that stuff adds up...

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 01:16 AM
The DCX2496 and the DEQ2496 are two gems in turd clothing.

When you reach Sith Lord status it's easier to visualize driver integration.

you are a funny funny dude :)

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 01:17 AM
Check this out.
http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=248407

An example of someone designing a 'technically correct' passive crossover in
software.

Capacitors used;

1uF
2uF
3.2uF
5.7uF
6.2uF
20uF

Coils used;
100uH
200uH
390uH
1.7mH

Resistors used;
1.2 Ohms
4 Ohms
20 Ohms


///

Which capacitors to use? The best would be Telfon, polystyrene but good luck
finding those large values. The realistic choice is foil/film polypropylene but even
those are high priced and the capacitors are physically big. What everyone uses
is metalized polypropylene which is good, but not elite. Store bought consumer
grade speakers will use rock bottom low performing non polarized electrolytics.

Price compare;
Film/Foil Poly
1uF - $10 ea.
2uF - $14 ea.
3.2uF - $18 ea.
5.7uF - $31 ea.
6.2uF - $31 ea.
20uF - $85 ea.

$189 x 2 {two channels} = $378 for elite capacitors. I'm sure if you look hard
you can get non-name brands for 1/2 that price, still it's almost $200 just
for these caps.

Metalized Poly
1uF - $1 ea.
2uF - $1.5 ea.
3.2uF - $1.75 ea.
5.7uF - $2 ea.
6.2uF - $2.15 ea.
20uF - $5 ea.

Much better. $13.40 x 2 {two channels} = $26.8

Coils;
100uH - $2
200uH - $2.5
390uH - $5
1.7mH - $18

Coils - $27.5 x 2 {two channels} = $55

Resistors are cheap so I won't go there.

*Elite capacitor plus coil cost = $433

*Good capacitor plus coil cost = $81

///

If you spend all that time making elite crossover design and used
electrolytic capacitors, you should be spanked. If you used metalized poly
caps driver cost will be $81 + resistor cost + shipping, over $100.

If you feel like you want the elite crossover parts you will spend over $450.

If this is a DIY venture, the $250 digital crossover sounds pretty good as
it can be used over and over again for future builds assuming you don't use
your previous builds. You can also make a passive crossover for your previous
build if you wanted to use that loudspeaker or have plans to sell it. If you have
plans to sell it, then make a cheap passive crossover. But if you like to DIY
speakers the active system pays for itself in no time.

The big bonus with active;

You can create different sounds from a single design.
The passive version is fixed, you can't change component values, crossover slopes,
adjust frequency, add delays, etc etc etc.. without designing a whole new passive
crossover.

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 01:20 AM
wow...awesome...i noticed that the inputs/outputs are XLR..at least i think they are...does that mean i gotta get a direct box to convert:

1/8" stereo mini --> quarter inch adapter --> Direct box --> XLR cable?

cuz all that stuff adds up...

I don't know your skill level, but if it was me I'd make my own cables.

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=220559&highlight=cables

1/8" on one end, XLR on the other end using decent cable.

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 02:30 PM
wow...i think i should pass on making my own cables...maybe one day, but not yet :)

for now, i think i found some suitable substitutes...

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-6-XLR-Male-TRS-1-4-Patch-Cable-6ft-GLS-Audio-37-305_W0QQitemZ7362642011QQcategoryZ41461QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

there are 6, which i think is more than i need, and they arent very expensive at all...so its simpler than making my own cable, and far cheaper than getting XLR cables plus direct box plus quarter inch cables...

my question...how much will sound quality be affected by cheaper cables?

as for you and your active crossover, thylantyr, i do plan on getting one :) you have convinced me... i plan on using it permanantly for my home theatre setup (although i cant figure out how i would run a 5.1 with only 3 outputs) and i also plan on using it to design speakers and build passive crossovers...

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 04:47 PM
Before you buy cables figure out what you want to connect to.

What source will connect to the DCX ? The DCX back panel here;
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/proddetail.cfm?lang=ENG&id=DCX2496&type=210

Three inputs, XLR female. You need male XLR cables to plug into the inputs.

Six outputs, XLR male. You need female XLR cables to plug into the outputs.

For example;

If you used an AV receiver with RCA output, you need RCA male
to XLR male cable, two of them, one for each of the two channels.

For DCX outputs. If you use a home amplifier that accepts RCA input then
you need RCA male to XLR female cables.

If you have a pro audio amplifier that has XLR input then you need a
female XLR to male XLR cable. If your pro audio amp has 1/4" TRS {many amps
have both XLR and 1/4" inputs}, then you can use the 1/4" to XLR cable also.

Not to complicated matters, but many home amplifiers use RCA input and have
no gain controls so the output of the Behringer will be a higher voltage output
{10V world) and the home amplifier's input sensitivity is in the 2V world meaning
that the Behringer will provide a very strong signal to the home amplifier, in this
case too much gain, and your signal to noise ration will suffer. Too much hiss.

One trick to reduce output gain is to make a custom XLR to RCA cable to reduce
gain by 6dB. I have my DCX connected to a home amp and my custom cable
has a switch to select 'normal' or -6dB attenuation to get 'less hiss' when using
the home amp.

my question...how much will sound quality be affected by cheaper cables?
The only thing related to SQ with cables is 'extra' noise picked up by the cable
and the cable length that makes the cable act like a low pass filter. In other words, if your cable if very very long you can attenuate the high frequencies
that pass through the cable. You can do the 'math' to figure this out if you
know some parameters about the cable and equipment used. I wouldn't worry
about this if you keep your cables under 50 feet in length. Even cheap cables
are fine.

as for you and your active crossover, thylantyr, i do plan on getting one :) you have convinced me... i plan on using it permanantly for my home theatre setup (although i cant figure out how i would run a 5.1 with only 3 outputs) and i also plan on using it to design speakers and build passive crossovers...

The DCX is a good development tool and you can use it permanetly as long
as you understand that it's a six output device. You can make your left/right
towers 2 way plus sub and use the DCX, you can make a 3 way tower and use
all six outputs but you won't have subwoofer output, you could use more than
one DCX for esoteric installs but if you want to do a 5.1 setup the DCX would
only be used for your two main speakers. For surrounds and center channel
you might have to make a passive crossover design for those speakers or
make your HT system more elaborate by making it all active.

Another thing to note. For best signal to noise performance of a DCX using
analog inputs, it's best to get higher voltage preamp to drive those inputs.
For example, home gear is 2V, some stuff is 1V. This will work but if you want
lower noise performance you would need to insert a dedicated analog preamp
to drive the DCX. ie,

Source {1V to 2V} -> Preamp {~ 8V} -> DCX analog input.

This would be ideal if you had a bigger budget. One such example would be
a Parasound Halo preamp, $800. It has XLR outputs with 8V I believe.

Before you do anything you have to figure out the master plan to see how
all the stuff interfaces to one another.

Also, set priorities on what is important to you. Is HT more important than
2 channel audio? Do you really want an active system for your two tower mains?
Do you plan to build more systems in the next few years OR do you want
to play with drivers to understand them? Is spending money on a 'test bench'
worth it or can you live with loudspeaker kits already engineered and found in
cyberspace? Do you think you will keep upgrading the sound system?

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 09:35 PM
Also, set priorities on what is important to you. Is HT more important than
2 channel audio? Do you really want an active system for your two tower mains?
Do you plan to build more systems in the next few years OR do you want
to play with drivers to understand them? Is spending money on a 'test bench'
worth it or can you live with loudspeaker kits already engineered and found in
cyberspace? Do you think you will keep upgrading the sound system?

soo many questions...all of which i have answers for...home theatre will EVENTUALLY be more important than two channel audio, but right now im in college/living in dorms so i just wanna start learning about different drivers, how they sound, and how they go together...within the next few years, i dont plan on building too many systems, maybe one or two to get my feet wet...more importantly, i want to play with drivers :-D ...that is, play to LEARN...i think spending money on a test bench is worth it...i have always loved audio, i got into caraudio a few years back and my whole system got stolen, and i never replaced it, and i hardly drive anyways so now im looking to the home...i want not only to HAVE some awesome stuff, but know how its built...specifically, i want to build it...that way i can tailor it to MY preferences...i may build a project tahts been already done...one of the sub-$100 per pair ones just for practice...but i raelly want to get that test bench and start gaining an understanding of more that is out there....i do plan on constantly upgrading my system, not TOO often, but in order to cater to my needs, if i test a new brand of speaker that i like, i may have to build it :)

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 10:41 PM
So.. you want to be a loudspeaker Jedi ......................... or is it dark lord ;)

If your plan is to find the awesome drivers by doing test bench auditions then
you can settle for cheaper sources. While a portable CD or MP3 player works,
it's kinda noisy for critical listening. Find a used AV receiver on the auction site
for dirt cheap, or perhaps a good preamp with volume control. Get the DCX
and buy a universal DVD player. I recently snagged a Samsung HD941 universal
DVD player for $126 shipped. CD, DVDA, SACD, MP3, and even HD-CD playback
so you can sample different formats. I chose this particular brand only because
it will output upsampled DVD over component video which is an illegal function,
it does it by means of a simple remote control hack {press some keys to enable
the feature}. I have an old HD RPTV with no digital inputs so this hack enables me
get come better picture quality in 1080i mode. You can get used universal DVD
players for cheaper.

When buying drivers for audition the good news is --> you only need to buy one.
You really don't need to listen to the drivers in stereo unless you want to burn
2x more cash. After you collect drivers you have a reference. You can do blind
tests with people by hiding the drivers behind grill cloth and making a simple
switcher to toggle between two drivers being compared too. This is what I do.

If you like high impact, higher SPL sound I have some suggestions as that is
what I seek when doing this hobby.

If you really want to push the envelope, seek a pro audio amplifier for testing.
I suggest a used QSC RMX series. The RMX2450 is the best bang for buck.
2400w for $400 used, $600 street, sometimes you see then new for $500.

QSC has many RMX lines, RMX850, RMX1450, RMX1850HD, RMX2450, RMX4050HD,
RMX5050.

What you can do for testing is run the amplifier in bridge mode to really push
the drivers hard and to raise clipping headroom as to remove the amplifier
from the equation.

You can also use Crown XLS, those are Crowns entry level amps that are cheaper
than RMX but they don't have some cool features I like that the RMX offers like
'easy bridging', 'air tunnel' heatsink, variable speed fan. I don't remember if XLS
has subsonic filters, I'm too lazy to look.

thylantyr
11-08-2005, 10:53 PM
Here's what you need to do :swordfigh

Make a list of high end audio stores and go audition some expensive loudspeakers,

Bring the same CD to the audition, a CD that you are very familar with.

Take notes on the system you heard. Speaker brand, what type of drivers used,
how much power were the amps. Don't worry about CD players or preamps used,
focus on the speaker, room size, driver sizes and power used.

This will help calibrate yourself to find what type of system you like sorta like
test driving a vehicle.

If you find something awesome then see what's so special about the loudspeaker, get up close and start the examination.

When it's time to DIY you have a reference point to start with.

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 10:57 PM
problem is, your suggesting i spend a whole lotta money kinda fast...i wanna ease into it with what i have...i can use my line out from my computer so i can play CDs on here and send the signal to the DXC...then, i want to output to that stereo i already have (it has RCA inputs) and run the driver i am testing out of there...its only 30 watts per channel, i guess i could bridge it (right?) since im only testing one driver at a time...

this way, for NOW, i could only have to buy the DCX, some drivers, and some cables, and begin my journey...unless u see an error?

jaygeorge1979
11-08-2005, 10:59 PM
Here's what you need to do :swordfigh

Make a list of high end audio stores and go audition some expensive loudspeakers,

Bring the same CD to the audition, a CD that you are very familar with.

Take notes on the system you heard. Speaker brand, what type of drivers used,
how much power were the amps. Don't worry about CD players or preamps used,
focus on the speaker, room size, driver sizes and power used.

This will help calibrate yourself to find what type of system you like sorta like
test driving a vehicle.

If you find something awesome then see what's so special about the loudspeaker, get up close and start the examination.

When it's time to DIY you have a reference point to start with.

im not sure i would even know where to go to find a high end audio place around here...gots best buy, circuit city...but im not convinced those are the best bet...honestly, i like the way bose sounds...nice and clean sound...but i have heard that we audio ppl dont buy bose, so dont tell anyone :-D

thylantyr
11-09-2005, 12:04 AM
Try your current rig, computer, etc.

Find high end loudspeakers online and ask where the nearest dealer is.

Usually there is traveling involved if you live in Egypt :)

jaygeorge1979
11-09-2005, 01:06 AM
haha...i dont live in egypt...i am just not sure what to do when i find a loudspeaker i like...say i figure out what drivers are used, what then? try and find em on partsexpress.com or some other internet sight? then buy em and build em myself? would it actually be cheaper that way?

thylantyr
11-09-2005, 03:36 AM
haha...i dont live in egypt...i am just not sure what to do when i find a loudspeaker i like...say i figure out what drivers are used, what then? try and find em on partsexpress.com or some other internet sight? then buy em and build em myself? would it actually be cheaper that way?

Lets say you like a Bose cube, then you can buy a $1 driver and put it in a small
box and you can get the same performance :laugh:

Lets say the only sound system that pleased you looked like this;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/wisdom/

Then you know that partexpress won't have what you want :laugh:

Perhaps you are messmerized by the line array as the salesman waves
his Jedi hand on you;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speakers/jedi.jpg

Perhaps DIY your own like this;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speakers/stryke-array-1.jpg

Maybe you saw these and loved the cabinet work and thought it sounded good.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/Avalon_sent-grand.jpg

Maybe you can make something inspired by it like Feandil did.
Feandil's uber 3 way using recipes I preach.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/Good_pic_high_quality.JPG

Or maybe you want something evil;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/speaker_box.jpg

Who knows, maybe a standard MTMW design plus subwoofer is what
you like, another system inspired by my preaching.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/full_front.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/right_speaker_with_dad.jpg

Another system using a recipe given the thumbsup by me;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/ar2/

Last... if you want to destroy people you can clone my system in the werks;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proto/Prototype-13_1.jpg

:yumyum:

When you audition different system you'll know what type of system satisfies and it will
eliminate alot of trial and error. ie, if you test drive different cars and trucks you'll know
what 'type' of vehicle satisfies and you can cross the other types of vehicles off your list.

jaygeorge1979
11-09-2005, 02:25 PM
Last... if you want to destroy people you can clone my system in the werks;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proto/Prototype-13_1.jpg

:yumyum:


:word:

about the bose cube speakers, are you being serious? cuz...well...i liked the way bose sounded...does that make me noobish :-p

JimJ
11-09-2005, 02:26 PM
Well, we all have our personal tastes...

but for me, Bose stands for Buy Other Sound Equipment.

JimJ
11-09-2005, 02:29 PM
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/wisdom/wisdom_1.jpg

Bah! Solid state. Heathens.

thylantyr
11-09-2005, 02:45 PM
If you like cube speakers, check out the pluto.

PVC pipe speaker. {small}
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/intro.htm

You don't have to make this exact one, but you can get a midwoofer
and put in inside a pipe, make a base, and install a tweeter. Run your
active setup and fine tune the sound by ear. /simple.

You can probably make a bigger version with that 'sonotube' paper
cylinder stuff found at home centers, perhaps 8" - 12" diameter tube.
Make some wooden end caps and viola', you have a Pluto on steriods.

jaygeorge1979
11-09-2005, 05:27 PM
are you saying check out the pluto cuz it produces sound similar to bose's cubes or are you sayng that cuz it is also a small speaker? i am not sure i like the design, although it is interesting...

haha....buy other sound equipment...pwned...

thylantyr
11-09-2005, 07:01 PM
are you saying check out the pluto cuz it produces sound similar to bose's cubes or are you sayng that cuz it is also a small speaker? i am not sure i like the design, although it is interesting...

haha....buy other sound equipment...pwned...

because... it's a small speaker, easy to make, looks weird...