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Beat_Dominator
10-23-2005, 03:34 AM
Anyone who has even barely delved into the Audiophile realm will quickly learn that these people that love that "warm" sound of tubes are totally conceited.

It's like these people *cough* Jack Frost *cough* think that they know something that 90% of all other audio connoisseurs don't. The truth is that Tube fans are like Corvette owners. They think they own the ultimate driving machine and thus their **** don't stink, but in reality, they are too poor to step to a real machine and are thus left to rule the trailer park.

One day maybe they'll see, that there's more to audio that disgustingly high noise floor and embellished recreation of recordings....:crap:

JimJ
10-23-2005, 03:43 AM
That time of the month, again?

btnhfan
10-23-2005, 03:48 AM
Lol where did that outburst come from?

I have never heard tubes, but to each his own I say.

JimJ
10-23-2005, 03:49 AM
Lol where did that outburst come from?

I've been taunting him about a recent...solid-state...purchase :)

Beat_Dominator
10-23-2005, 03:49 AM
Yer just a big smell-face.

JimJ
10-23-2005, 03:51 AM
I thought you liked it like that :D

bikejunkie223
10-23-2005, 03:57 AM
Know the difference between a cactus and a corvette? Cactus have the pricks on the outside. bada-bump.

JimJ
10-23-2005, 04:12 AM
:rolleyes:

Beat_Dominator
10-23-2005, 04:15 AM
Don't hurt yourself rolling your eyes like that. I thought it was a fairly accurate quote.... same applies to Caddy owners (that aren't gangstah).

fatryan
10-23-2005, 04:21 AM
you know, i really commend you on making such a retarded thread. and every **** time i look at your avatar i ****in bust up laughin

Beat_Dominator
10-23-2005, 04:24 AM
Yeah, we all love Kitty.

kuijo
10-23-2005, 04:32 AM
Representin' SS...

thylantyr
10-23-2005, 04:53 AM
I prefer 10kw of pro audio amplifiers for a normal system.

But...f or my new ultimate battlestation, I have my eye on six RMX4050's...
24kw for starters...
I just have to figure out how to get electrical service in to the room :crazy:

PV Audio
10-23-2005, 09:57 PM
^^ iwas just about to say lol, 24kw off a home breaker?

JimJ
10-23-2005, 09:59 PM
480VAC 3-phase?

*grunt* more power...

:)

PV Audio
10-23-2005, 10:03 PM
480 volts is quite a bit

DBfan187
10-23-2005, 10:03 PM
Tube amps - they clip the input, but not the output to get that desiralbe distortion, right?

thylantyr
10-23-2005, 11:16 PM
^^ iwas just about to say lol, 24kw off a home breaker?

I have 14 circuit breaks that feed the house, so the electrical service coming in
must be at least 14 x 20A = 280A. You don't operate those 14 circuit at full power
either and the electrical company probably over-engineers the feed coming into
the house to prevent fires.

All you need to is to add more breakers to the panel and install the extra wiring
to the room -- easier said than done for a non-electrician :eyebrow:

.. so six monster amps = six more breakers/wires to add ..

Or cheat;

Cheat #1 - tap into existing electrical wiring.
Cheat #2 - route the extra wiring to your breaker box and tap off existing breakers so they share if your panel can't support more breakers.

/bah .. it's a headache unless you have money, in that case you hire someone
to do this ....

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 01:59 AM
Or steal your neighbors power :up2somet:

IamDeMan
10-24-2005, 11:51 AM
YA! F dem **** snobby SOBs. If they want something warm and fuzzy then give me a hug instead of your tube amp :crazy:

Whatever floats ones boat though.

Johnny Drama
10-24-2005, 11:52 AM
Anyone who has even barely delved into the Audiophile realm will quickly learn that these people that love that "warm" sound of tubes are totally conceited.

It's like these people *cough* Jack Frost *cough* think that they know something that 90% of all other audio connoisseurs don't. The truth is that Tube fans are like Corvette owners. They think they own the ultimate driving machine and thus their **** don't stink, but in reality, they are too poor to step to a real machine and are thus left to rule the trailer park.

One day maybe they'll see, that there's more to audio that disgustingly high noise floor and embellished recreation of recordings....:crap:


Who is your favorite artist/s of all time?

DBfan187
10-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Who is your favorite artist/s of all time?Picasso...:up2somet:

Raven
10-24-2005, 12:19 PM
Oddly enough, I bet Beat Dominator has never even *listened* to a tube amp. I've gone so far as to hook an SS amp to my left headphone, and a tube amp to my right headphone, and play music so I can hear a very direct and real difference between the two. It doesn't mean my **** smells nice, it just means I know the difference and prefer the tube amp. Sheesh.

thylantyr
10-24-2005, 12:27 PM
Tube amps - they clip the input, but not the output to get that desiralbe distortion, right?

No.

When a tube amplifier distorts the waveform morphs, if you were to see
a sine wave it would look irregular vs the square wave type of waveform you see
with solid state. This distortion is what people associated with tube sound.
They like the tube distortion because it's not as nasty as square wave distortion.

On the other hand when you play tubes in their linear region, you'd fail a blind test with
a solid state amplifier because waveforms would be unclipped and be an representation
of the source just amplified.

Guitar players like tube amplifiers because they over-drive the amp into
distortion to create their 'tones'.

To bias someone towards tubes, all you do is get two amplifiers of the same power,
one solid state, one tube and run them into distortion, people will favor the tube.

The trick to get high performance out of a solid state amplifier is to operate the amplifier
unclipped. To do this you need high voltage rails. High voltage rails is associated with
high powered amplifiers. If you raise your clipping headroom you will have more dynamic
music and no clipping distortion.

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 01:55 PM
Who is your favorite artist/s of all time?

I like Escher, and Keith Haring. Of course I enjoy things from the classic artists as well.

:veryhapp:

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 02:11 PM
Oddly enough, I bet Beat Dominator has never even *listened* to a tube amp. I've gone so far as to hook an SS amp to my left headphone, and a tube amp to my right headphone, and play music so I can hear a very direct and real difference between the two.



How nice of you to prove my point with a conceited remark like that.

vasilios
10-24-2005, 02:13 PM
for guitar, ill take a nice WARM, FULL, and THICK sound of a tube amp any day over solid-state.

every solid-state amp ive tried has just the opposite sound; cold, empty, and thin.

ive been playing for 5-6 years...tube amps continue to rule when it comes to its mild overdrive soft clipping sound and tone.

but, then again, a lot of solid-state modeling amps now a days are starting to sound more and more like tube amps...its scary.

Johnny Drama
10-24-2005, 02:14 PM
I like Escher, and Keith Haring. Of course I enjoy things from the classic artists as well.

:veryhapp:

Not what I meant ;)

Who is you fav musical artist.

DBfan187
10-24-2005, 02:14 PM
No.

When a tube amplifier distorts the waveform morphs, if you were to see
a sine wave it would look irregular vs the square wave type of waveform you see
with solid state. This distortion is what people associated with tube sound.
They like the tube distortion because it's not as nasty as square wave distortion.

On the other hand when you play tubes in their linear region, you'd fail a blind test with
a solid state amplifier because waveforms would be unclipped and be an representation
of the source just amplified.

Guitar players like tube amplifiers because they over-drive the amp into
distortion to create their 'tones'.

To bias someone towards tubes, all you do is get two amplifiers of the same power,
one solid state, one tube and run them into distortion, people will favor the tube.

The trick to get high performance out of a solid state amplifier is to operate the amplifier
unclipped. To do this you need high voltage rails. High voltage rails is associated with
high powered amplifiers. If you raise your clipping headroom you will have more dynamic
music and no clipping distortion.

Ah yes.:veryhapp:

About the irregular waveforms. When I hooked up my AC Epicenter to my oscope. I got some weird looking waves. Weren't squared, but more of like stretching and bending in ways unimaginable.:eek:

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 02:14 PM
but, then again, a lot of solid-state modeling amps now a days are starting to sound more and more like tube amps...its scary.


Yes, PHEAR teh SS rebellion! :laugh:

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 02:28 PM
Not what I meant ;)

Who is you fav musical artist.

Hmm, how to answer ye age old "loaded" question.

Lets try to sub-catagorize these and maybe it'll make sense :crazy:

1. Vintage (pre 1990 in this case so not "too" vintage):
a) Beatles
b) Queen
c) Dire Straights
d) The Traveling Wilburys
e) Early Tom Petty
f) Early U2
g) The Cars
h) Early Billy Joel
i) Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
j) The Temptations
k) Duke Ellington
l) Miles David
m) Rosanne Cash

2. Modern:
a) Cranberries
b) Collective Soul
c) Silverchair
d) Static-x
e) Days of the New
f) Tonic
g) Cracker
h) Garbage
i) Smashing Pumpkins
j) Better Than Ezra
k) Stabbing Westward
l) Webb Wilder
m) The Refreshments


There are of course about a billion more but my fingers hurt and this kind of gives you a strange over view of my musical tastes.

So, does this me that me and you are now boyfriends? :eyebrow:

We don't have to hold hands do we? :blush:

Johnny Drama
10-24-2005, 02:46 PM
Hmm, how to answer ye age old "loaded" question.

Lets try to sub-catagorize these and maybe it'll make sense :crazy:

1. Vintage (pre 1990 in this case so not "too" vintage):
a) Beatles
b) Queen
c) Dire Straights
d) The Traveling Wilburys
e) Early Tom Petty
f) Early U2
g) The Cars
h) Early Billy Joel
i) Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
j) The Temptations
k) Duke Ellington
l) Miles David
m) Rosanne Cash

2. Modern:
a) Cranberries
b) Collective Soul
c) Silverchair
d) Static-x
e) Days of the New
f) Tonic
g) Cracker
h) Garbage
i) Smashing Pumpkins
j) Better Than Ezra
k) Stabbing Westward
l) Webb Wilder
m) The Refreshments


There are of course about a billion more but my fingers hurt and this kind of gives you a strange over view of my musical tastes.

So, does this me that me and you are now boyfriends? :eyebrow:

We don't have to hold hands do we? :blush:

You know what...funk you for that. I was simply trying to get a feel for why you have the views you do by asking what type of music. Since you are a douch bag who deserves to have his radio broken I'll quit posting just to appease you.

Tubes>you [/discussion]

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 02:53 PM
Yer so funky jntar :p:

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2005, 09:04 PM
I almost bought a McIntosh amp today on eBay but then I found out it had t00bs :(

squeak9798
10-24-2005, 09:10 PM
I almost bought a McIntosh amp today on eBay but then I found out it had t00bs :(

I almost fucked a girl once.....but then I found out she had a *****.

Raven
10-24-2005, 09:30 PM
How nice of you to prove my point with a conceited remark like that.

What are you talking about? Nowhere in this thread have you ever mentioned anything about listening to a tube amp, which is where my statement originates. You just called tube amp users trailer trash with a false assumption of higher intelligence.

I don't use a tube amp just so I can diss SS amps and thair users. I just said I know the difference between my average quality tube amp and average quality SS amp on my cheap pair of Sony headphones, and prefer the former. If that's being conceited to you, you're going to have a lot more of your opinion to defend than the simple eternal tubes vs solidstate debate.

LoudCrownVic
10-24-2005, 10:34 PM
Tubes>anklets

It's cold now, so you need more coverage....

I had a tube amp once, before I knew what they were... I had an old reciever. I bought a new one and threw it off of a 2nd story building. ****.

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2005, 02:17 AM
I almost fucked a girl once.....but then I found out she had a *****.

Thats rough holms.... It wasn't jntar was it? ;)

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2005, 02:21 AM
you're going to have a lot more of your opinion to defend than the simple eternal tubes vs solidstate debate.


If I wanted to settle the debate I would have made a thread about what the differences are and why one is a better choice.

This thread was made for the sole purpose of making fun of tube users for being nerds. :crazy:

bikejunkie223
10-25-2005, 10:46 AM
Chicks look hot in tubes. I like tubes in my bike, though my mountain bike is tube-less (ss?!) I rode on a tube behind a boat once. I sent a check into a bank and got my money back through a tube. Man, there is a lot of tube-usage in my life, does this mean I have to be a concieted, holier-than-though prick now?

JimJ
10-25-2005, 11:41 AM
This thread is so funny...

I've forgotten what to laugh at.

squeak9798
10-25-2005, 11:44 AM
This thread is so funny...

I've forgotten what to laugh at.

Here you go:

http://www.tomvanostrand.net/images/mirror.jpg




:D :p: ;) :wow: :crazy: :cool:
:omg:

JimJ
10-25-2005, 11:45 AM
You think you're funny, good sir.

But you're not.

Oh no.

Not hardly.

Or something.

squeak9798
10-25-2005, 11:57 AM
Meh....I laughed :p:

squeak9798
10-25-2005, 11:57 AM
Thats rough holms.... It wasn't jntar was it? ;)

Nope.

Jazn.

DBfan187
10-25-2005, 12:07 PM
Here you go:

http://www.tomvanostrand.net/images/mirror.jpg




:D :p: ;) :wow: :crazy: :cool:
:omg:it told me that I'm the sexiest of them all.:crap:

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2005, 07:09 PM
Jazn sure does get around!

JAZN
10-25-2005, 07:49 PM
lmao, how the hell did my name get mentioned in this thread...

Brad doesnt put out either, even after I paid. Buyers beware. Scammer.

squeak9798
10-25-2005, 07:52 PM
lmao, how the hell did my name get mentioned in this thread...

Brad doesnt put out either, even after I paid. Buyers beware. Scammer.

I told you.....have the wait for the genital warts to flare down again......

Beat_Dominator
10-26-2005, 02:38 AM
lmao, how the hell did my name get mentioned in this thread...

Brad doesnt put out either, even after I paid. Buyers beware. Scammer.

Ah thx for the heads up Mike2. I'll be sure to add him to my scammer list. No A++++++++++++ feedback from me :(


Squeakers puts out though :blush:

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 04:31 PM
Bump, I still hate t00b jerks.

gl0ck
10-09-2006, 04:36 PM
wow, old thread man.

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 04:38 PM
Almost a year....and my hatred still burns :furious:

thylantyr
10-09-2006, 05:42 PM
Almost a year....and my hatred still burns :furious:

First post of this thread -> :laugh:

Over 20 years ago I didn't understand all the claims behind tube amps, mainly
from guitar players. Until one day I talked to an engineer at work who played guitar and he clued me in on waveform distortion of tube vs. solid state. Eventually I figured it out and understand why musicians love the tube designs -> to create special effects by over driving tube amps.

For music playback, I'm in the neutral school, where the signal up to the speakers
is only altered by frequency response {as in EQ} or maybe add some delays, otherwise I was never interested in having my preamps or amplifiers adding
coloration in the form of distortion {whether percieved good or bad} to the loudspeaker. I want the speaker to give me the sound personality.

The root problem lies in the fact that most tube lovers don't understand what
is going on electricially, they just assume there is special magic going on
and thus they make these claims as they do on tube superiority. It's not superior,
it just has the potential to color the sound in a way they like.

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 05:47 PM
Don't make excuses for them. JimJ is well aware of the colorations, yet he loves them.

It's makes me sick :fyi:

squeak9798
10-09-2006, 06:57 PM
I told you.....have the wait for the genital warts to flare down again......

Still on the medication for this, by the way......

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 07:03 PM
Have they helped with the outbreaks though??

squeak9798
10-09-2006, 07:07 PM
Mildly.

squeak9798
10-09-2006, 07:07 PM
they just assume there is special magic going on

:fyi: It is magic. Pixie dust sprinkled from the fairy golden ear :fyi:

CBFryman2
10-09-2006, 07:18 PM
Lawl@thread

joetama
10-09-2006, 08:17 PM
Well I saw this and figured I would comment.

If tube ppl are stuck up what am I?????

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 08:31 PM
You are beyond saving :fyi:

joetama
10-09-2006, 09:00 PM
Hahaha... Well atleast I have a bad *** system....

DubbDesigns
10-09-2006, 09:17 PM
I like teh t00bs

ballstothewall
10-09-2006, 09:21 PM
I have some t00bs...:uhoh:

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 10:04 PM
:furious:

JimJ
10-09-2006, 11:09 PM
Almost a year....and my hatred still burns :furious:

Are you sure that burning's not from the clap you got from Pennis?

Beat_Dominator
10-09-2006, 11:11 PM
No :blush:

joetama
10-10-2006, 02:35 AM
He just sounds like a hater.... Plan and simple, not happy with his own system so he has to hate on others.. You know...

springy101
10-10-2006, 02:54 AM
noobx tubes?

JimJ
10-10-2006, 01:58 PM
I'm not happy with my system at the moment :(

Beat_Dominator
10-10-2006, 02:01 PM
Lol I know :up2somet:

You need to accept my help and stop fighting! :cuddle:

JimJ
10-10-2006, 02:02 PM
:inlove:

I've come around since then...I didn't like you back then, you were a meanie :)

Beat_Dominator
10-10-2006, 02:08 PM
Lol me? You were the one pokin' phun at my SS gear :(

thylantyr
10-10-2006, 06:47 PM
For the record. I don't hate tube or SS. I hate low clipping headroom as found
in low powered amps. I think that is the root cause of perceived amplifier poo poo performance regardless what causes the clipping. Clipped dynamics
is counterproductive.

// bring on the monster amps // :veryhapp:

JimJ
10-10-2006, 06:50 PM
Thing is, if something breaks on a monster amp crammed chock-full of parts on a PCB, can you fix it yourself? :D And heaven help you if you have any SMD parts...:)

Beat_Dominator
10-10-2006, 07:03 PM
Break? A good amp will not break in the proper hands.

Beat_Dominator
10-10-2006, 07:11 PM
^ Pointing out another thing that makes t00b people a problem, they think everything breaks all the time like their crappy t00b equip. :fyi:

ballstothewall
10-10-2006, 08:13 PM
For the record. I don't hate tube or SS. I hate low clipping headroom as found
in low powered amps. I think that is the root cause of perceived amplifier poo poo performance regardless what causes the clipping. Clipped dynamics
is counterproductive.

// bring on the monster amps // :veryhapp:


4,000+ watts in a dorm room available.... does that qualify??

*or is that just stupid....lol*

JimJ
10-10-2006, 08:14 PM
^ Pointing out another thing that makes t00b people a problem, they think everything breaks all the time like their crappy t00b equip. :fyi:

So you're saying everything SS has 100% reliability? :)

Beat_Dominator
10-10-2006, 08:29 PM
Totally reliable ;)

thylantyr
10-10-2006, 11:21 PM
Thing is, if something breaks on a monster amp crammed chock-full of parts on a PCB, can you fix it yourself? :D And heaven help you if you have any SMD parts...:)

This past year I tortured my PLX3402 and Crest10k until death to see
what they can do. PLX was a piece of cake to fix, SMD yes. Crest 10k is the hardest
amp so far to repair. Only because they crammed the stuff tight.

joetama
10-11-2006, 02:12 AM
Well.... tubes have their advantages over SS but SS also has it's advantages over tubes.... So yea.... Beat Dom and JimJ just need to kiss and make up... Because you are both wrong and both right. The only way you would be 100% right is if you had my or my dad's new setup (which is better than mine :()

IamDeMan
10-11-2006, 09:28 AM
I'm not happy with my system at the moment :(Anyone in the pursuit of good sound is never happy. Same goes for any hobby someone is passionate about. However out of the sake of being kicked out of bed by my wife I compromise and settled now and then lol.

IamDeMan
10-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Well.... tubes have their advantages over SS but SS also has it's advantages over tubes.... So yea.... Beat Dom and JimJ just need to kiss and make up... Because you are both wrong and both right. The only way you would be 100% right is if you had my or my dad's new setup (which is better than mine :()

Ya beat dom. Take it back. Toob people aren't conceited. The british ear is :P

joetama
10-11-2006, 11:37 AM
Ya beat dom. Take it back. Toob people aren't conceited. The british ear is :P

EXACTLY!!! Hahaha...

No but seriously... The old man now has

804S
Classe SSP-300 Processor
Arcam Diva 137 CD/DVD Player
Rotel RB-1080

It's just a touch better than my system... I really want to "borrow" that Classe Processor....

heyman421
10-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Anyone who has even barely delved into the Audiophile realm will quickly learn that these people that love that "warm" sound of tubes are totally conceited.

It's like these people *cough* Jack Frost *cough* think that they know something that 90% of all other audio connoisseurs don't. The truth is that Tube fans are like Corvette owners. They think they own the ultimate driving machine and thus their **** don't stink, but in reality, they are too poor to step to a real machine and are thus left to rule the trailer park.

One day maybe they'll see, that there's more to audio that disgustingly high noise floor and embellished recreation of recordings....:crap:

LOL, i love the corvette comparison.

corvette drivers are 3rd only to camaro, and mustang drivers in ego:performance disproportion.

Beat_Dominator
10-11-2006, 01:45 PM
I don't think the British Ear's conceited ways were ever in question :p:

ramos
10-11-2006, 02:26 PM
My grandmother used to set moonpies on the old arse philco tube radio. So they would be all warm and smooshy when she gave them to us. So I kind of have a warm spot for tubes :)

joetama
10-11-2006, 04:28 PM
I don't think the British Ear's conceited ways were ever in question :p:

Well I have no hard feelings towards anyone... I just know I'm better ;)... LOL... It's all in good fun boys all in good fun...

GordonW
10-13-2006, 05:46 PM
Dismissing tube amps as "higher distortion" and "colored" is a simplistic argument. And as such, it's frequently false.

When comparing two amps, there's a very useful test called "distortion spectrum test". Basically, it's NOT only HOW MUCH distortion, it's HOW MANY harmonics the distortion typically shows up in.

The human ear is very tolerant of low-order harmonics (ie, second, third, fourth harmonics)... but higher order harmonics (8th, 9th, 10th, and so on) can be heard/sensed in VERY SMALL quantities... and are usually regarded as a "harsh" or "gritty" sound.

While tube amps have more second and third harmonic distortion, the distortion spectrum goes VERY RAPIDLY to zero. It's rare to have significant higher harmonics present, at anything other than HARD CLIPPING. OTOH, there's LOTS of solid state amps (fortunately, not as much as it was, even 5 to 10 years ago) that exhibit SIGNIFICANT, AUDIBLE amounts of higher harmonics, EVEN AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS, due to non-linearities in the transistors themselves that CANNOT be completely corrected by feedback. Feedback is good at correcting lower harmonics (lower frequency, less bandwidth required by the feedback circuit) than they are at correcting higher harmonics (where the frequencies sometimes EXCEED the bandwidth that the feedback loop can correct, due to time delays in the return path).

As I mentioned, there ARE better semiconductors now... and REALLY GOOD solid state designs (high-end stuff, for the most part) can be VERY clean/transparent/smooth sounding. But MANY amp designs out there (especially on mid-priced stuff) are based on older technology... and still have some of the same problems...

So, don't fall into the trap of "it measures better, it MUST sound better". You've gotta be careful of WHAT they're measuring, and HOW they're measuring it!!

Regards,
Gordon.

desertheat
10-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Anyone who has even barely delved into the Audiophile realm will quickly learn that these people that love that "warm" sound of tubes are totally conceited.

It's like these people *cough* Jack Frost *cough* think that they know something that 90% of all other audio connoisseurs don't. The truth is that Tube fans are like Corvette owners. They think they own the ultimate driving machine and thus their **** don't stink, but in reality, they are too poor to step to a real machine and are thus left to rule the trailer park.

One day maybe they'll see, that there's more to audio that disgustingly high noise floor and embellished recreation of recordings....:crap:


*LOL* hey butt nugget, I am a tube guy as well :) hahahaha. All good. I am one of the rare ones that like tubes because...

#1 they are classic and are more of an art form than other styles of amplifiers or equipment...

#2 certian styles of tubes coupled usually to very high efficiency speakers sound quite amazing and can have bass and **** top end if built / designed correctly.

#3, I like projects, older tube amps make very cool and fun projects to restore and are a great conversation item

#4 the warm glow gives me a warm and fuzzy hahaha.


In car, I run solid state and will only run solid state. In my HT, of course.. solid state...

In my future listening room / currently my office you will find a beatiful pair of OTL's coupled to a line array.

It is not so much a status or snob thing... but kinda a refined item... Like a fine wine, a perfectly cooked steak or ripping up the mountain corners in any sports car, high end or not. Looking at a tube amplifier and listening to a good setup always brings a nice feeling to things... makes the whole experience feel more worthwhile. With car audio or a standard home stereo... You walk around.. doing things... driving and listening.. with a real audiophile setup you can sit for hours changing cd's or records listening and enjoying... You just tend to listen more if you invest in a high end setup or repaired / built your own amp... just my perspective. Tube amps are the origin of true home audio, and they have been modified and changed over time to sound as good if not better than solid state.

But yeah.. I see your point... some people brag non stop about there newest 3 watt super tube, harmonically balanced uber amp that just cost them $6K dollers per side and that nothing else could sound better. Those guys **** me off and usually there stuff sounds like crap coming from an alarmclock haha!

GordonW
10-13-2006, 06:14 PM
If anyone wants to talk reliability, I can only mention:

a) Set of McIntosh MC30 monoblock tube amps, and the accompanying C-20 tube preamp... bought by the ORIGINAL OWNER in 1961 (!) and were STILL WORKING when they were removed (and replaced with MODERN tube amps, he wanted remote control and more power) in 2004. And he used them an AVERAGE of 8 hours EVERY DAY (he was a dentist, and had his practice in his house, where the system provided background music in his office ALL DAY every day).

b) My Harman-Kardon Award 300 integrated amp. Got it from a guy who was going to throw it away... only thing wrong with it, after THIRTY EIGHT YEARS, was a bad volume control, which had caused an overload in one channel, which used up one of the output tubes. A new volume control, two new tubes (I replaced them in a matched pair) and two new coupling caps (for insurance sake), and it's working LIKE NEW. Literally, thirty bucks worth of parts, and an hour to fix it. It now sits in my living room, and it provides a lot of fun for me and my friends to listen to.

3. My former (I sold it) Magnavox AMP185 tube amp... got it out of a console. Made in 1960. Replaced ONE RESISTOR, and it was perfect. All the tubes measured LIKE NEW on three different tube testers.

How many people seriously think ANY of the modern "mass-market" solid state stuff is going to be working 40 years from now?

Regards,
Gordon.

thylantyr
10-13-2006, 07:38 PM
OTL's coupled to a line array.

Line array? cool... where's the pics ?

thylantyr
10-13-2006, 07:41 PM
Dismissing tube amps as "higher distortion" and "colored" is a simplistic argument. And as such, it's frequently false.

When comparing two amps, there's a very useful test called "distortion spectrum test". Basically, it's NOT only HOW MUCH distortion, it's HOW MANY harmonics the distortion typically shows up in.

The human ear is very tolerant of low-order harmonics (ie, second, third, fourth harmonics)... but higher order harmonics (8th, 9th, 10th, and so on) can be heard/sensed in VERY SMALL quantities... and are usually regarded as a "harsh" or "gritty" sound.

While tube amps have more second and third harmonic distortion, the distortion spectrum goes VERY RAPIDLY to zero. It's rare to have significant higher harmonics present, at anything other than HARD CLIPPING. OTOH, there's LOTS of solid state amps (fortunately, not as much as it was, even 5 to 10 years ago) that exhibit SIGNIFICANT, AUDIBLE amounts of higher harmonics, EVEN AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS, due to non-linearities in the transistors themselves that CANNOT be completely corrected by feedback. Feedback is good at correcting lower harmonics (lower frequency, less bandwidth required by the feedback circuit) than they are at correcting higher harmonics (where the frequencies sometimes EXCEED the bandwidth that the feedback loop can correct, due to time delays in the return path).

As I mentioned, there ARE better semiconductors now... and REALLY GOOD solid state designs (high-end stuff, for the most part) can be VERY clean/transparent/smooth sounding. But MANY amp designs out there (especially on mid-priced stuff) are based on older technology... and still have some of the same problems...

So, don't fall into the trap of "it measures better, it MUST sound better". You've gotta be careful of WHAT they're measuring, and HOW they're measuring it!!

Regards,
Gordon.


Some thoughts that derail your post.

ABX test, people will fail the amp test. No matter if the amp is 20 years old,
tube, solid state, class D. As long as the 'apples to apples' test is calibrated
properly. That doesn't say that you can't hear a different overdriven, but
over driving amps is counterproductive right? lol

RE: Semiconductor issue. Give me some 20+ year old lateral mosfest or
TIP35 transistors and I can show you some great amp designs that hold their
own today. Give me an ancient 5532 opamp and compare it to a modern
$25 opamp, and you will fail the blind test.

LOL....

GordonW
10-14-2006, 05:30 PM
Some thoughts that derail your post.

ABX test, people will fail the amp test. No matter if the amp is 20 years old,
tube, solid state, class D. As long as the 'apples to apples' test is calibrated
properly. That doesn't say that you can't hear a different overdriven, but
over driving amps is counterproductive right? lol



Most people seem to misunderstand the applicability of an ABX test.

Even David Clark, the INVENTOR of the modern ABX test, had to admit to Gary Galo at the 1991 AES meeting, that an ABX test CANNOT rule out differences between equipment... only that the ABX can only CONFIRM a difference. In other words, there is NO WAY an ABX test can prove a negative result. These are FUNDAMENTAL LIMITATIONS of the ABX methodology.There are quite possibly differences that are beyond the scope of the limited test specifications. These limitations of ABX testing have been known in audio engineering circles, for at least the last 16 years.

Besides, the "apples to apples" test requirements fly in the face of reality anyhow. NOT ALL AMPS actually HAVE the same frequency response... and once you put an EQ in line with one amp to compensate for another, all bets are off anyway, due to the addition of the "sonic signature" of the EQ itserlf. And ,the difference between noise floor behaviour is not something to be IGNORED, but one of the PRIME REASONS people pick one amp design over another.

In addition, the "no clipping" requirements of the ABX test methodology mentioned above, fly in the face of VIRTUALLy ALL real-world music listening. Unless you have THOUSANDS of watts and/or VERY EFFICIENT speakers (ie, 95 dB sensitivity or higher, you WILL instantaneously clip MOST ANY amp on transients. Most "live" music (ie, recordings without excessive compression) have 30-40 dB "crest factor"... ie, if you're listening to an average of 80 dB, you have PEAKS of 110 dB or higher. It's not PERCIEVED to be that loud on average... because, the average level IS only around 80 dB. But, the AMP sees that 110 dB peak as 1000X the power demand, of the 80 dB nominal level... and voila, momentary clipping.

In short, one of the fundamental problems in modern society is the tendency to over-simplfy issues... which is bad enough when it's simply politics or day-to-day social behaviour. But when such over-simplification invades science, it's a bad day for science...

Regards,
Gordon.

thylantyr
10-15-2006, 04:03 AM
You like falling into my trap :)


In addition, the "no clipping" requirements of the ABX test methodology mentioned above, fly in the face of VIRTUALLy ALL real-world music listening. Unless you have THOUSANDS of watts and/or VERY EFFICIENT speakers (ie, 95 dB sensitivity or higher, you WILL instantaneously clip MOST ANY amp on transients. Most "live" music (ie, recordings without excessive compression) have 30-40 dB "crest factor"... ie, if you're listening to an average of 80 dB, you have PEAKS of 110 dB or higher. It's not PERCIEVED to be that loud on average... because, the average level IS only around 80 dB. But, the AMP sees that 110 dB peak as 1000X the power demand, of the 80 dB nominal level... and voila, momentary clipping.

In the real world you say.

"you WILL instantaneously clip MOST ANY amp on transients. "

and

"Most "live" music (ie, recordings without excessive compression) have 30-40 dB "crest factor".

Ok, cool. I have 12 proamps, 62kw of power/headroom. That satisfied the
requirement. I could buy 62kw of tube amplification, but image the costs. LOL
Since most people have 1w - 10w tube amps, the criteria is not met and the
tube amp isn't good.. based on your claim.... But, on the other hand, efficient
speakers offsets the low power and it can offer good performance. These efficient
loudspeaker designs are limited. Since the loudspeaker gives you the most impact on
SQ, limiting your choice on loudspeaker designs is counter productive. A person should
have access to all the loudspeaker designs to properly find satisfaction, then find the
suitable amplifier second.

You said;

OTOH, there's LOTS of solid state amps (fortunately, not as much as it was, even 5 to 10 years ago) that exhibit SIGNIFICANT, AUDIBLE amounts of higher harmonics, EVEN AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS, due to non-linearities in the transistors themselves that CANNOT be completely corrected by feedback.

Considering that ABX amplifier testing has been done for many many years,
tube vs. solid state, in their 'unrealistic' operating mode of 'not clipping', you
call this 'low listening levels', then the ABX test would be an easy pass as the SS
amp would be detected by audible distortion.... but so far, it has not. This implies that the human ear isn't as good as electronic test gear when it comes to
detecting low level distortion.


:)

My views are different for using tube amps to creat sonic special effects, ie guitar players who overdrive the amps, etc.

Beat_Dominator
10-15-2006, 01:39 PM
:laugh: look at what JimJ started.

desertheat
10-16-2006, 01:48 AM
OTL's coupled to a line array.

Line array? cool... where's the pics ?

I love it when someone says "line array" and the smmmaaarrrtttt folks come ah running *LOL*!!! I am actually building it slowly, I tried a design from the old zalytron book but was not happy with it.. To dry for my taste.. I am currently seeking somthing new which is why I made the reference to my "future listening room". I will be useing a pair of t16 otls from trancendent for power.... the head and the pre are still undecided but I may end up with the grounded grid preamp as well from trancendent. I have found Bruces writings facinating!

I am no mega audio guru as some of you may be but I have been around a very very long time in this biz, more on the political side of this. But I listen allot and have a passion for it still. This system will be my dream system and I cannot wait to finish it. I am not rich and the most of my funds go to my show car, but it is almost done so now time to re-direct funds.... If any of you mega guru's wanna send some advice for the array, please feel free. I have been talking with a guy at madisound for ideas and searching the web.

I will have 40w at 8ohm to work with so I have quite a few options... Time will tell!

Beat_Dominator
10-16-2006, 01:51 AM
I have a preamp for sale Desert :p:

I have faith in your tastes though man. If only my setup was in a more dedicated listening room, then I'd have you come take a listen, and you might not care about line arrays anymore :up2somet:

desertheat
10-16-2006, 05:11 PM
I will listen to anything anyplace, does not matter the room or the setting, I just wanna hear what things sound like. Pm me with what ya have..?

Beat_Dominator
10-16-2006, 05:20 PM
Will do ;)

joetama
10-16-2006, 07:19 PM
What do you have now Beat?

JimJ
10-16-2006, 07:22 PM
He has the preamp he was going to sell to me :)

I'm still kinda debating it...but Classe has a couple things I'm considering as well...and the B&K looks good for the price too, but the nerds on AudioAsylum dissed it, lol.

Beat_Dominator
10-16-2006, 07:26 PM
I'll sell you my Classe pre Jimbo....for a healthy profit ;)

fancynapkin
10-21-2006, 04:12 PM
Dismissing tube amps as "higher distortion" and "colored" is a simplistic argument. And as such, it's frequently false.

When comparing two amps, there's a very useful test called "distortion spectrum test". Basically, it's NOT only HOW MUCH distortion, it's HOW MANY harmonics the distortion typically shows up in.

The human ear is very tolerant of low-order harmonics (ie, second, third, fourth harmonics)... but higher order harmonics (8th, 9th, 10th, and so on) can be heard/sensed in VERY SMALL quantities... and are usually regarded as a "harsh" or "gritty" sound.

While tube amps have more second and third harmonic distortion, the distortion spectrum goes VERY RAPIDLY to zero. It's rare to have significant higher harmonics present, at anything other than HARD CLIPPING. OTOH, there's LOTS of solid state amps (fortunately, not as much as it was, even 5 to 10 years ago) that exhibit SIGNIFICANT, AUDIBLE amounts of higher harmonics, EVEN AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS, due to non-linearities in the transistors themselves that CANNOT be completely corrected by feedback. Feedback is good at correcting lower harmonics (lower frequency, less bandwidth required by the feedback circuit) than they are at correcting higher harmonics (where the frequencies sometimes EXCEED the bandwidth that the feedback loop can correct, due to time delays in the return path).

As I mentioned, there ARE better semiconductors now... and REALLY GOOD solid state designs (high-end stuff, for the most part) can be VERY clean/transparent/smooth sounding. But MANY amp designs out there (especially on mid-priced stuff) are based on older technology... and still have some of the same problems...

So, don't fall into the trap of "it measures better, it MUST sound better". You've gotta be careful of WHAT they're measuring, and HOW they're measuring it!!

Regards,
Gordon.

I mean, there isn't really an argument, tube amps have more distortion than their solid state counter parts. There are reasons why tubes are obsolete.

Heres a good article thats sure to **** off a few: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf
10 biggest lies in audio. yes, tube amps are listed.

Sound quality is obtained almost entirely quantitatively, its the ability to reproduce recordings accurately.
But some simply enjoy the sound of tubes more. There is more to a hifi system than having ruler flat response curves, people want to appreciate the music, and if that means inaccuracy, so be it.

JimJ
10-21-2006, 05:28 PM
That article is one of the biggest jokes around.


Sound quality is obtained almost entirely quantitatively,

So why can't I go to a SQ show and be judged exactly the same, every time, if I haven't changed a thing? By your logic, IASCA judges are incompetent nincompoops that shouldn't be allowed to step in people's cars, if SQ really is an absolute.

JimJ
10-21-2006, 05:39 PM
Want articles? Read these: :)

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl49.html
http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl38.html
http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl52.html

I don't agree with him on his opinions on direct drive turntables, but those are worth the read.

fancynapkin
10-21-2006, 05:44 PM
That article is one of the biggest jokes around.

So why can't I go to a SQ show and be judged exactly the same, every time, if I haven't changed a thing? By your logic, IASCA judges are incompetent nincompoops that shouldn't be allowed to step in people's cars, if SQ really is an absolute.

Did it make laugh at how much money you wasted on overpriced hifi equipment?

The IASCA isn't judging how accurate your stereo is, they are measuring how much it pleases the judges.
You can call it an "SQ show" all you want, but it doesnt make it so.

Someone once said, "the reproduction of music is not subjective, the appreciation of it is"

JimJ
10-21-2006, 05:49 PM
Did it make laugh at how much money you wasted on overpriced hifi equipment?

What tubed setup have you heard?

Because if you haven't...what basis do you have to make any sort of judgement about this sort of thing? :)

squeak9798
10-21-2006, 06:05 PM
Most people seem to misunderstand the applicability of an ABX test.

Even David Clark, the INVENTOR of the modern ABX test, had to admit to Gary Galo at the 1991 AES meeting, that an ABX test CANNOT rule out differences between equipment... only that the ABX can only CONFIRM a difference. In other words, there is NO WAY an ABX test can prove a negative result. These are FUNDAMENTAL LIMITATIONS of the ABX methodology.There are quite possibly differences that are beyond the scope of the limited test specifications. These limitations of ABX testing have been known in audio engineering circles, for at least the last 16 years.

Besides, the "apples to apples" test requirements fly in the face of reality anyhow. NOT ALL AMPS actually HAVE the same frequency response... and once you put an EQ in line with one amp to compensate for another, all bets are off anyway, due to the addition of the "sonic signature" of the EQ itserlf. And ,the difference between noise floor behaviour is not something to be IGNORED, but one of the PRIME REASONS people pick one amp design over another.

In addition, the "no clipping" requirements of the ABX test methodology mentioned above, fly in the face of VIRTUALLy ALL real-world music listening. Unless you have THOUSANDS of watts and/or VERY EFFICIENT speakers (ie, 95 dB sensitivity or higher, you WILL instantaneously clip MOST ANY amp on transients. Most "live" music (ie, recordings without excessive compression) have 30-40 dB "crest factor"... ie, if you're listening to an average of 80 dB, you have PEAKS of 110 dB or higher. It's not PERCIEVED to be that loud on average... because, the average level IS only around 80 dB. But, the AMP sees that 110 dB peak as 1000X the power demand, of the 80 dB nominal level... and voila, momentary clipping.

In short, one of the fundamental problems in modern society is the tendency to over-simplfy issues... which is bad enough when it's simply politics or day-to-day social behaviour. But when such over-simplification invades science, it's a bad day for science...

Regards,
Gordon.

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=123226&pagenumber=1

Beat_Dominator
10-21-2006, 06:14 PM
:laugh: Squeak is alway good for that link.

squeak9798
10-21-2006, 06:15 PM
:laugh: Squeak is alway good for that link.

:)

smd4life
10-21-2006, 06:17 PM
:fyi:skweek>everyone:fyi:

JimJ
10-21-2006, 06:24 PM
There aren't any contributing factors to the "sound" of an amplifier that are not comprehended in the classic amp measurements (enumerated above). If amps sound different, it's because of a significant, measureable difference in one of these categories.


I don't have any problem with that statement. So yes, you could theoretically take a SS amp and get something that sounds indistinguishable from a tube amp, if you could produce the harmonics in the same way. But would it be the same?


#1 they are classic and are more of an art form than other styles of amplifiers or equipment...

#3, I like projects, older tube amps make very cool and fun projects to restore and are a great conversation item

#4 the warm glow gives me a warm and fuzzy hahaha.

You still don't get that with shiny little black boxes :)

Beat_Dominator
10-21-2006, 06:27 PM
:inlove:

JimJ
10-21-2006, 06:30 PM
Look what you've created, Evan...

:D

creyc
10-21-2006, 06:38 PM
What's with the not-so-subtle Corvette reference in this thread?

A $65,000 car that wins the LeMans in its class sounds like a pretty **** fine driving machine to me. Then again it may not have the "cool" points of its slower Aston Martin competition... :\

I dont understand you, Beat_Dominator.

ballstothewall
10-21-2006, 07:41 PM
You still don't get that with shiny little black boxes :)

Shiny BIG black boxes thank you. :)

JimJ
10-21-2006, 07:43 PM
In a pounds-per-watt comparison...they're teeny :D

ballstothewall
10-21-2006, 07:46 PM
Very true, 3kw in ~30lbs lol

JimJ
10-21-2006, 07:49 PM
What, something up with 8w in 40lbs?

:D

300B-based amps are like half the weight, because they don't need transformers quite as big...but then there's the whole tubes-cost-twice-as-much-to-replace thing. I'd rather grunt while putting them in the rack than pay an extra $200 every three years.

Thoriated tungsten cathodes = FTMFW

ballstothewall
10-21-2006, 07:52 PM
For some reason that weight to power ratio reminds me of the Eniac computer... ;)

JimJ
10-21-2006, 08:00 PM
Physically, ENIAC was massive compared to modern PC standards. It contained 17,468 vacuum tubes, 7,200 crystal diodes, 1,500 relays, 70,000 resistors, 10,000 capacitors and around 5 million hand-soldered joints. It weighed 30 short tons (27 t), was roughly 8 feet (2.4 m) by 3 feet (0.9 m) by 100 feet (30 m), took up 1800 square feet (167 mē), and consumed 150 kW of power.

Retubing 17 thousand tubes...hmm...ouch


By the simple (if expensive) expedient of never turning the machine off, the engineers reduced ENIAC's tube failures to the more acceptable rate of one tube every two days.

:laugh:

bdawson72
10-21-2006, 08:09 PM
Retubing 17 thousand tubes...hmm...



:laugh:


dang

ballstothewall
10-21-2006, 08:10 PM
That would **** being the ***** that had to replace tubes...

Beat_Dominator
10-21-2006, 08:23 PM
Let's re-cap:

Toob owners are senile, SQ is a myth, and Corevette owners are still ***** :fyi:

fancynapkin
10-22-2006, 02:07 AM
What tubed setup have you heard?

Because if you haven't...what basis do you have to make any sort of judgement about this sort of thing? :)

Ive heard plenty, and Ive built a millet hybrid tube headphone amp. I prefer that type of sound only with smaller jazz groups, where the added warmth doesnt muddy anything up.

Either way, spending a hefty amount of cash on an amp is worthless unless you have the speakers to match.

and measurments are the only truths we know in audio.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/sd-qulty.gif

JimJ
10-22-2006, 02:22 AM
Either way, spending a hefty amount of cash on an amp is worthless unless you have the speakers to match.

Totally agreed. Speaker selection makes or breaks a flea-powered setup :)


and measurments are the only truths we know in audio.

Is there a "put the test instruments away and listen to the music" truth as well? Maybe the only things we can quantify are the hard numbers, like the distortion characteristics, SNR, etc, etc...but what would be the point in reviewing equipment if that was the case?

I don't know, I just think the truth lies somewhere in the middle between lunatic subjectivity and blind objectivity. Or maybe Evan's right and lugging those heavy transformers around and listening to all that distortion has just made me senile and delusional.

:D

JAZN
10-22-2006, 06:26 AM
Let's re-cap:

Toob owners are senile, SQ is a myth, and Corevette owners are still ***** :fyi:

And I don't have the clap dammit :furious:

snoopdan
10-22-2006, 07:42 AM
Let's re-cap:

Toob owners are senile, SQ is a myth, and Corevette owners are still ***** :fyi:

:eyebrow:


ok, yeah we are. :laugh:

Beat_Dominator
10-22-2006, 01:54 PM
:word:


Poor Jazn with his STD. :thumbsdo:

Chevyaudio
10-22-2006, 01:59 PM
:word:


Poor Jazn with his STD. :thumbsdo:

:woot: For Dennis' STD

fancynapkin
10-22-2006, 06:00 PM
Is there a "put the test instruments away and listen to the music" truth as well? Maybe the only things we can quantify are the hard numbers, like the distortion characteristics, SNR, etc, etc...but what would be the point in reviewing equipment if that was the case?

I don't know, I just think the truth lies somewhere in the middle between lunatic subjectivity and blind objectivity. Or maybe Evan's right and lugging those heavy transformers around and listening to all that distortion has just made me senile and delusional.


Most people can't really relate to graphs unless they are heavy into this hobby, hence why we need words like "warmth" or "gritty" as descriptors. I am pretty skeptical of reviews based on total empiricism, because none of us have the exact same hearing.
But, generally if something measures well, it will sound good.
It takes some time to know exactly what sound you want, and how to interpret graphs to identify what that sound looks like on paper.

Tubes have there place in audio just as harley davidson's have there place in motorcycles, obsolete as either are.

Good link: http://zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 01:12 AM
You're an audio snob :fyi:

azbass
10-24-2006, 01:14 AM
psh i run teh toob in meh car.

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 01:18 AM
:furious:

joetama
10-24-2006, 01:02 PM
Tubes have there place in audio just as harley davidson's have there place in motorcycles, obsolete as either are.


If they have their place they are NOT obsolete. Why don't you go tell a big biker on a Harley next time you see him that his bike is 'obsolete'.

You're an audio snob :fyi:
Who isn't....

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 01:11 PM
V-Rods are quite high tech..... even though HDs **** teh ballz.

Chevyaudio
10-24-2006, 01:12 PM
meh t00bs are teh hawtness.

joetama
10-24-2006, 01:19 PM
V-Rods are quite high tech..... even though HDs **** teh ballz.

Boo... My Uncle owns a Harley Dealership and sells a ton of them for them being junk. And my 883 Sportster (100th year edition) seems to keep going up in value... How strange.... $7174.78 investment....

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 01:24 PM
This is a thread about t00bs sucking. Not HDs..... I'll start an "HDs ****" thread if you want. :nono:

joetama
10-24-2006, 01:39 PM
This is a thread about t00bs sucking. Not HDs..... I'll start an "HDs ****" thread if you want. :nono:

NO that's ok... I don't want to fight.... But yea... Tubes are for those old men who drive cattys and have nothign better to do with their lives....

fancynapkin
10-24-2006, 06:47 PM
If they have their place they are NOT obsolete. Why don't you go tell a big biker on a Harley next time you see him that his bike is 'obsolete'.


They are obsolete. Transistors do the exact same thing better in every way, minus the subjective factors. Its got nothing to do with their popularity.

JimJ
10-24-2006, 08:12 PM
Transistors do the exact same thing better in every way, minus the subjective factors.

Tell that to any RF engineer and see what he says :D

But even for audio, is something "better" just because it measures cleaner and doesn't take up as much space?

Since the invention of the steam engine, sailboats are pretty much useless commercially, but can you say a speedboat is always better than a sloop? Well, it depends on what you're using it for. Horses were pretty much put out of business by the internal combustion engine, yet there's no shortage of people that still ride them for pleasure. Digital audio has been around for 20+ years, but why is it that LP's are gaining in sales over the past few years?

My point is...be careful about obsolete technologies ;) Don't get so objective that it makes you blind to anyone's else's viewpoints, some of which may be valid.

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 08:23 PM
T00b jerks never have valid points of view :fyi:

JimJ
10-24-2006, 08:25 PM
T00b jerks never have valid points of view :fyi:

Do I need to start deleting your posts?

:mad: :veryhapp:

DBfan187
10-24-2006, 08:26 PM
so, who likes to jerk their tubes?

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 08:27 PM
JimJ does..he's a toob roller :rolleyes:

fancynapkin
10-24-2006, 08:41 PM
Tell that to any RF engineer and see what he says :D

But even for audio, is something "better" just because it measures cleaner and doesn't take up as much space?

Since the invention of the steam engine, sailboats are pretty much useless commercially, but can you say a speedboat is always better than a sloop? Well, it depends on what you're using it for. Horses were pretty much put out of business by the internal combustion engine, yet there's no shortage of people that still ride them for pleasure. Digital audio has been around for 20+ years, but why is it that LP's are gaining in sales over the past few years?

My point is...be careful about obsolete technologies ;) Don't get so objective that it makes you blind to anyone's else's viewpoints, some of which may be valid.

Using old **** has its appeals, its true for everything. If obsolete means something is no longer in use, than the word really holds no meaning. Tubes are technologically inferior, assigning comforting adjectives to their sound doesnt change that fact.
I don't really care if people like or dislike tubes. Its their money. Hell, Im sure some people enjoy getting pissed on, but I only rent those movies when my girlfriend is out of town.

JimJ
10-24-2006, 08:50 PM
Tubes are technologically inferior, assigning comforting adjectives to their sound doesnt change that fact.

I can see debating with you further is pointless...

OK :)

Beat_Dominator
10-24-2006, 10:44 PM
Yeah he's a real party pooper.


T00bz glow like little ghey candles :fyi:

joetama
10-25-2006, 01:55 AM
I can see debating with you further is pointless...

OK :)

I was thinking the same thing as I read his postes... No point in beating a death horse...


Yeah he's a real party pooper.


T00bz glow like little ghey candles :fyi:


Alright, now your posts are starting to get a little stupid.... I'm not saying that in a bad way... Just **** man you don't have anything better to say?

ballstothewall
10-25-2006, 02:34 AM
tubes glowing is a myth, they just put lightbulbs behind them :fyi:

;)

heyman421
10-25-2006, 09:24 AM
We used to jam in my buddy's basement with an old fender dual showman, with no backplate, and when that baby got warmed up, it would light the entire room in an orange glow..... pretty ****ing sweet.

Sounded awesome, too. Tube distortion FTW.

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 01:20 PM
^ I rest my case.

thylantyr
10-25-2006, 03:20 PM
I don't play guitar but there is a Jackson DK guitar in the home with a Line 6
Spider amp [solid state] with internal DSP to play different types of sounds.
I mess with the guitar for fun and I would be open to having a tube signal path
with effects to generate 'The distortion' we like to hear from heavy metal music, etc.
But I don't want this 'distortion' for audio playback.

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 03:44 PM
Yeah distortion is evil. T00b guys are deaf or something I think thy. :fyi:

joetama
10-25-2006, 06:29 PM
Yeah distortion is evil. T00b guys are deaf or something I think thy. :fyi:

Honestly I don't think there is any point left in this thread... And you just proved it... LOL....

GordonW
10-25-2006, 06:45 PM
They are obsolete. Transistors do the exact same thing better in every way, minus the subjective factors. Its got nothing to do with their popularity.

Actually, if you get down to the most basic fundamentals, tubes are more linear devices than even the most modern semiconductors.

Tubes and transistors have a property called transconductance... this describes the "gain" available. Put a small voltage in, and it gets amplified to a bigger voltage... in a nutshell, that's transconductance.

However, NO device keeps the EXACT SAME gain over the entire voltage range. To describe the changes in gian vs. input voltages, engineers use what's called a "transconductance curve"... a graph of input voltage vs. output voltage. All devices (tubes and transistors) have the general property that it takes a bit of input to make them turn on at all... they do NOT immediately start to conduct output until there's a small amount of voltage. Hence, there's a "flat spot" on the curve, at the bottom, where things are NOT linear. Also at the top of the curves (at high voltage) all devices start to go non-linear... the output voltage cannot "keep up" with the input anymore.

Between these two extremes, there is a relatively "flat" area, where the output is just a simple multiple of the input. This is called the "linear region", and is where all amplifying devices SHOULD be used.

To avoid the bottom region, most amps use "bias", which consists of applying just a little bit of static voltage to the amplifiying device, to 'prime' it so it's ready to turn on with the least bit of additional input. This avoids the "flat spot"... otherwise known as "crossover distortion", near zero-level.

However, the UPPER limit, is a bigger problem. The more dB (ie, higher range of gain) available between the bottom problem area and the top problem area, the better the device as an audio amp. Smaller linear regions == less available dynamic range and less resolution at lower signal levels.

Now, given that, it's interesting to find that tubes have, in almost every case, a BIGGER linear region (ie, they can go from LOWER to HIGHER output levels than transistors) than any semiconductors. Even the most modern MOSFET devices, STILL can't match the linearity of something like a 6SN7 or 6SL7 tube...not only does the tube have more distance between the lower and higher problem areas, it's FLATTER (ie, the transconcuctance curve is more a straight line) in the MIDDLE of the range than ANY semiconductor, built to date!

To compensate for this solid state amps have to use MUCH MORE feedback than tube amps, which can EXACERBATE time-delay related distortions. Phase shift from feedback, is a KNOWN cause for mis-behaviour in amps... the less needed, the better...

SO, from a fundamental standpoint, tubes still have better inherent behaviour as audio amps than transistors. Until you start getting into pretty exotic solid state designs (such as the pulse-width-modulated output coupled with a "gain cell" variable gain input, as used in the new PS Audio amps, which seem to be the MOST LINEAR solid state amps EVER, but which are UNLIKE ANY other solid state amps on the market) which find innovative, non-standard ways to completely side-step the whole gain/linearity issue, you're stuck with the shortcomings of the transistors in most solid-state amps...

Regards.
Gordon.

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 07:06 PM
My SS amp uses weird Fets ;)

JimJ
10-25-2006, 07:10 PM
Actually, if you get down to the most basic fundamentals, tubes are more linear devices than even the most modern semiconductors.

Tubes and transistors have a property called transconductance... this describes the "gain" available. Put a small voltage in, and it gets amplified to a bigger voltage... in a nutshell, that's transconductance.

However, NO device keeps the EXACT SAME gain over the entire voltage range. To describe the changes in gian vs. input voltages, engineers use what's called a "transconductance curve"... a graph of input voltage vs. output voltage. All devices (tubes and transistors) have the general property that it takes a bit of input to make them turn on at all... they do NOT immediately start to conduct output until there's a small amount of voltage. Hence, there's a "flat spot" on the curve, at the bottom, where things are NOT linear. Also at the top of the curves (at high voltage) all devices start to go non-linear... the output voltage cannot "keep up" with the input anymore.

Between these two extremes, there is a relatively "flat" area, where the output is just a simple multiple of the input. This is called the "linear region", and is where all amplifying devices SHOULD be used.

To avoid the bottom region, most amps use "bias", which consists of applying just a little bit of static voltage to the amplifiying device, to 'prime' it so it's ready to turn on with the least bit of additional input. This avoids the "flat spot"... otherwise known as "crossover distortion", near zero-level.

However, the UPPER limit, is a bigger problem. The more dB (ie, higher range of gain) available between the bottom problem area and the top problem area, the better the device as an audio amp. Smaller linear regions == less available dynamic range and less resolution at lower signal levels.

Now, given that, it's interesting to find that tubes have, in almost every case, a BIGGER linear region (ie, they can go from LOWER to HIGHER output levels than transistors) than any semiconductors. Even the most modern MOSFET devices, STILL can't match the linearity of something like a 6SN7 or 6SL7 tube...not only does the tube have more distance between the lower and higher problem areas, it's FLATTER (ie, the transconcuctance curve is more a straight line) in the MIDDLE of the range than ANY semiconductor, built to date!

To compensate for this solid state amps have to use MUCH MORE feedback than tube amps, which can EXACERBATE time-delay related distortions. Phase shift from feedback, is a KNOWN cause for mis-behaviour in amps... the less needed, the better...

SO, from a fundamental standpoint, tubes still have better inherent behaviour as audio amps than transistors. Until you start getting into pretty exotic solid state designs (such as the pulse-width-modulated output coupled with a "gain cell" variable gain input, as used in the new PS Audio amps, which seem to be the MOST LINEAR solid state amps EVER, but which are UNLIKE ANY other solid state amps on the market) which find innovative, non-standard ways to completely side-step the whole gain/linearity issue, you're stuck with the shortcomings of the transistors in most solid-state amps...

Regards.
Gordon.

I don't think USAmps ever looked at a transconductance curve when designing the AX-TU series...those 12AX7's are operating way out of linear specs :D

On other note...I :inlove: you.

:p:

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 07:14 PM
I remember now, my Amp uses insulated gate bi-polar transistors. They are better than t00bz :fyi:

Lil Poot
10-25-2006, 07:46 PM
fancynapkin and his links are never wrong. you all had better just accept it.

joetama
10-25-2006, 09:44 PM
That was a very interesting read there Gordon. I must say I love it when people who actually have facts to back up what they say ... I learened something new today....

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 09:52 PM
n00b :rolleyes:

joetama
10-25-2006, 09:54 PM
n00b :rolleyes:

Beat I usually think what you say is pretty funny or interesting but you are just being an idiot in this thread... No offence or anything...

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm just joshing you :p:

...and maybe you need to re-read the original post. This whole thread was meant to have a tongue-in-cheek attitude ;)

PenguinsAudio
10-25-2006, 10:31 PM
Tube amps, good for heating up the garage when jaming in the winter.

and hey, my tube amp is, god i dont even know how old, ive had it for 5 years and never had to replace anything. they are built like tanks. but some old soild state stuff i got flotin around....dont work no more.

not to say tubes are better but they do have their uses, as does SS

azbass
10-25-2006, 10:35 PM
i love people getting mad.

joetama
10-25-2006, 10:53 PM
I'm just joshing you :p:

...and maybe you need to re-read the original post. This whole thread was meant to have a tongue-in-cheek attitude ;)

I realize that, but **** man you need to come up wiht some better material... n00b is too worn out.... ;)

Beat_Dominator
10-25-2006, 10:56 PM
Fine! Let me go find some white papers on the effects that a t00b amps raised noise floor will have on the dynamic integrity of a faithfully reproduced analog recording.

joetama
10-25-2006, 11:16 PM
Hehe.... Don't get you undies in a knot man....

JimJ
10-26-2006, 01:44 AM
Tube amps, good for heating up the garage when jaming in the winter.

and hey, my tube amp is, god i dont even know how old, ive had it for 5 years and never had to replace anything. they are built like tanks. but some old soild state stuff i got flotin around....dont work no more.

not to say tubes are better but they do have their uses, as does SS

I think that's the most useful post out of anyone that's joined this year...congrats :D

Flipx99
10-26-2006, 11:58 AM
I saw this kit...

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/paramourII/paramourII.htm

$699 bucks for 1.5W, I have much to learn I suppose.

Raven
10-26-2006, 01:35 PM
Tube amps are extremely expensice to build and even more expensive to sell. It's not that they natually are worth over $200 / watt, it's just the cost involved in putting them together and that SS amps don't sound at all like tube amps IMO.

Flipx99
10-26-2006, 02:08 PM
Tube amps are extremely expensice to build and even more expensive to sell. It's not that they natually are worth over $200 / watt, it's just the cost involved in putting them together and that SS amps don't sound at all like tube amps IMO.

I see. I have never actually seen a tube amp in real life. I have seen a tubes in old TV though. It was many tubes.

JimJ
10-26-2006, 03:18 PM
It's the cost of the transformers, basically...

Anytime you have an audio signal that passes through a transformer, that's going to be the limiting factor in the bandwidth, and single ended amps like the ones you linked to require air gapped output transformers; cheaper iron core ones will kill any chance of having a flat frequency response. And the power transformer needs to be sized to provide 100% rated power, all the time, every time the amp is on. It's definitely not an efficient way to make noise :)

Push pull amps don't demand as much, because they're operating in Class AB and split the power demands between two or more tubes.

Beat_Dominator
10-26-2006, 03:23 PM
:word: x-formers are very important. You'd love the one in my Carver amp ;)

joetama
10-26-2006, 05:55 PM
Jim... I forget what Tubes do you run in that amp?

fancynapkin
10-26-2006, 07:38 PM
fzddxfsd

fancynapkin
10-26-2006, 08:15 PM
Actually, if you get down to the most basic fundamentals, tubes are more linear devices than even the most modern semiconductors.

Tubes and transistors have a property called transconductance... this describes the "gain" available. Put a small voltage in, and it gets amplified to a bigger voltage... in a nutshell, that's transconductance.

However, NO device keeps the EXACT SAME gain over the entire voltage range. To describe the changes in gian vs. input voltages, engineers use what's called a "transconductance curve"... a graph of input voltage vs. output voltage. All devices (tubes and transistors) have the general property that it takes a bit of input to make them turn on at all... they do NOT immediately start to conduct output until there's a small amount of voltage. Hence, there's a "flat spot" on the curve, at the bottom, where things are NOT linear. Also at the top of the curves (at high voltage) all devices start to go non-linear... the output voltage cannot "keep up" with the input anymore.

Between these two extremes, there is a relatively "flat" area, where the output is just a simple multiple of the input. This is called the "linear region", and is where all amplifying devices SHOULD be used.

To avoid the bottom region, most amps use "bias", which consists of applying just a little bit of static voltage to the amplifiying device, to 'prime' it so it's ready to turn on with the least bit of additional input. This avoids the "flat spot"... otherwise known as "crossover distortion", near zero-level.

However, the UPPER limit, is a bigger problem. The more dB (ie, higher range of gain) available between the bottom problem area and the top problem area, the better the device as an audio amp. Smaller linear regions == less available dynamic range and less resolution at lower signal levels.

Now, given that, it's interesting to find that tubes have, in almost every case, a BIGGER linear region (ie, they can go from LOWER to HIGHER output levels than transistors) than any semiconductors. Even the most modern MOSFET devices, STILL can't match the linearity of something like a 6SN7 or 6SL7 tube...not only does the tube have more distance between the lower and higher problem areas, it's FLATTER (ie, the transconcuctance curve is more a straight line) in the MIDDLE of the range than ANY semiconductor, built to date!

To compensate for this solid state amps have to use MUCH MORE feedback than tube amps, which can EXACERBATE time-delay related distortions. Phase shift from feedback, is a KNOWN cause for mis-behaviour in amps... the less needed, the better...

SO, from a fundamental standpoint, tubes still have better inherent behaviour as audio amps than transistors. Until you start getting into pretty exotic solid state designs (such as the pulse-width-modulated output coupled with a "gain cell" variable gain input, as used in the new PS Audio amps, which seem to be the MOST LINEAR solid state amps EVER, but which are UNLIKE ANY other solid state amps on the market) which find innovative, non-standard ways to completely side-step the whole gain/linearity issue, you're stuck with the shortcomings of the transistors in most solid-state amps...

Regards.
Gordon.

Negative feedback in SS amps reduces distortion and noise, lowers output impedance, increases input impedance, strengthens gain control and is implemented quite effectively in modern amplifier designs without many consequences, and for much cheaper than a nice tube amp. People like tube amps because they produce pleasant harmonics when they distort.

JimJ
10-26-2006, 08:55 PM
Jim... I forget what Tubes do you run in that amp?

Svetlana SV811-10's are the triodes, the input tubes are RCA 6EA7's.

GordonW
10-26-2006, 09:19 PM
Negative feedback in SS amps reduces distortion and noise, lowers output impedance, increases input impedance, strengthens gain control and is implemented quite effectively in modern amplifier designs without many consequences, and for much cheaper than a nice tube amp. People like tube amps because they produce pleasant harmonics when they distort.

A more linear device has less distortion in the first place.

Low output impedence is NOT necessary for good design. Plenty of speakers were PURPOSE BUILT for higher-impedence amps (both tube and solid state), and can work JUST as well as those built for lower output impedence amps. It's a matter of TOTAL DAMPING, not just that of the amp. Speaker drivers CAN be built to DAMP THEMSELVES, very well... just look at most any modern TAD driver, for one example...

Gain control isn't really an issue, when the amp is more LINEAR in the first place. And the ONLY place where solid-state amps have a distinct advantage in this area, is they "variable gain cell mated to PWM" methodology used by PS Audio (patented). NOBODY else builds amps this way yet... they're ALL either based on total-PWM (which has higher filtering requirements, ie noisier) or ALL class-AB/class A (which is NOT variable gain, and therefore has a compromised noise floor compared to the hybrid design above).

"Without many consequences" is a polite way of saying "it doesn't screw up TOO much". :D

The one thing that solid state amps CAN boast about, is DEFINITELY lower cost. It's impossible to build tube amps cheaply... no one will dispute that. BUT... that's not really the issue here... there's a claim that SS INHERENTLY sounds better than tubes... but except for the RARE EXCEPTION, there's pretty few inherent reasons for this to be so, and some VERY VALID reasons for the opposite to sometimes happen!

And the more "benign" clipping behaviour of tubes? Part again, of the better linearity...

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW
10-26-2006, 09:29 PM
BTW: A tube amp, with a noise floor LOWER (ie LESS NOISE) than pretty much ANY conventional solid state amp. And I'm including pricy stuff like Krell, and the like.

http://www.vac-amps.com/Phi_Beta.htm

I'm sitting here listening to one right now, at the store... :D

Regards,
Gordon.

ballstothewall
10-26-2006, 09:31 PM
Thats a **** amp.

Beat_Dominator
10-26-2006, 09:37 PM
BTW: A tube amp, with a noise floor LOWER (ie LESS NOISE) than pretty much ANY conventional solid state amp. And I'm including pricy stuff like Krell, and the like.

http://www.vac-amps.com/Phi_Beta.htm

I'm sitting here listening to one right now, at the store... :D

Regards,
Gordon.

Any graphs of the amp's distortion??

JimJ
10-26-2006, 11:25 PM
BTW: A tube amp, with a noise floor LOWER (ie LESS NOISE) than pretty much ANY conventional solid state amp. And I'm including pricy stuff like Krell, and the like.

http://www.vac-amps.com/Phi_Beta.htm

I'm sitting here listening to one right now, at the store... :D

Regards,
Gordon.

Beautiful...pictures of setup now :D

Digital or analog source? ;)

fancynapkin
10-27-2006, 12:43 AM
BTW: A tube amp, with a noise floor LOWER (ie LESS NOISE) than pretty much ANY conventional solid state amp. And I'm including pricy stuff like Krell, and the like.

http://www.vac-amps.com/Phi_Beta.htm

I'm sitting here listening to one right now, at the store... :D

Regards,
Gordon.

I don't know how many people consider a 20,000 dollar amp conventional...

joetama
10-27-2006, 01:23 AM
Me like KT-88's.... Like them much better than 6550's.... Even though they are pretty much the same thing....

Beat_Dominator
10-27-2006, 01:26 AM
I'm a pentode fan myself.

thylantyr
10-27-2006, 07:40 PM
As night falls, Jim finds peace and harmony as he puts in his favorite music
and listens to his tube amp system...... unbeknownst to him as to what is about to take place...



Beat Dominator.... slams open Jims' house door holding a 100 pound
solid state amp cradled under his right arm and yells .......................................
.................................................. .............
.................................................. ............ I'm The Juggernaut B*tch!!








reference;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3934651591022114445

joetama
10-27-2006, 09:05 PM
Oh **** son.....

JimJ
10-27-2006, 09:32 PM
Naw, I'd have the candles already lit, some Diana Krall spinning on the 'table, the soft filament glow emanating through the room...

Evan would find it irresistable.

:D

joetama
10-27-2006, 09:46 PM
Naw, I'd have the candles already lit, some Diana Krall spinning on the 'table, the soft filament glow emanating through the room...

Evan would find it irresistable.

:D

Are you going to try to seduce him?

JimJ
10-27-2006, 09:49 PM
Don't have to try very hard...

:)

CBFryman2
10-27-2006, 09:50 PM
As night falls, Jim finds peace and harmony as he puts in his favorite music
and listens to his tube amp system...... unbeknownst to him as to what is about to take place...



Beat Dominator.... slams open Jims' house door holding a 100 pound
solid state amp cradled under his right arm and yells .......................................
.................................................. .............
.................................................. ............ I'm The Juggernaut B*tch!!








reference;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3934651591022114445

Pfft
Chuck Norris dressed as the Juggernaut.

desertheat
10-28-2006, 01:39 PM
And you know what happened to the Juggernaut haha, he got owned by a tiny chick and a bald nerd. Beat, you need to expand your mind bro. Tubes are pure audio ***.

PenguinsAudio
10-29-2006, 01:45 AM
the argument continues, and my garage is still warm

GordonW
10-30-2006, 11:10 AM
Beautiful...pictures of setup now :D

Digital or analog source? ;)

Primary source is VPI TNT turntable, with VPI SDS speed-control unit, VPI JMW12.5 arm and Ortofon Jubilee moving-coil cartridge. Secondary source is Creek CD-50 CD player.

Speakers, are Martin-Logan Prodigys with twin Descent subwoofers (one subwoofer per channel, stereo bass). I can literally make the front windows of the store move in and out visibly on pipe organs... :D

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW
10-30-2006, 11:13 AM
And as to why a $20000 tube amp? For the same reason they build Ferrari Enzos, Bugattis, Koenigseggs, McLaren F1s and such. Sometimes, you just want the VERY BEST POSSIBLE, no matter what it costs...

Regards,
Gordon.

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 01:32 PM
Car analogies and audio never work well.

I can't make a pig into a Ferrari but I can take an ordinary cheap tube circuit
and 'bling bling' the chassis with diamond and gold plating.

JimJ
10-30-2006, 01:33 PM
Yikes...quite a source setup no matter what the amplification is :)

JimJ
10-30-2006, 01:34 PM
Car analogies and audio never work well.

I can't make a pig into a Ferrari but I can take an ordinary cheap tube circuit
and 'bling bling' the chassis with diamond and gold plating.

Seems to me you just set up another analogy...you could just as easily take a Fiero and make it look like a Lambo, but will it perform the same?

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 01:54 PM
Feiro lambos are teh bomz0rz.

GordonW
10-30-2006, 02:05 PM
Car analogies and audio never work well.

I can't make a pig into a Ferrari but I can take an ordinary cheap tube circuit
and 'bling bling' the chassis with diamond and gold plating.

Um, 6SN7 tubes aren't cheap. They are more linear than any other form of analog amplification device, but they're not cheap.

1000VA power transformers aren't cheap.

Output transformers with 10-40000 Hz bandwidth (+- 1 dB) and 180+ w/ch output capacity before the onset of saturation (into a 2 ohm load!) aren't cheap.

Transformer-coupled moving-coil phono stages (again with 10-40000 Hz +- 1 dB bandwidth) aren't cheap to build.

The real hardware is there...

Regards,
Gordon.

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 02:07 PM
My amp is down 1dB at 80khz :crap:

GordonW
10-30-2006, 02:22 PM
My amp is down 1dB at 80khz :crap:

Try hooking a transformer to the output, and see what the frequency response is. Good transformers are hard to find, and EXPENSIVE...

But worth it, when they're done properly. BTW, even though it's down 1 dB 1t 40KHZ, it's only down 3 dB at 100KHz... so it's not a brick-wall rolloff, by any measure. Phase response from 20Hz to 20KHZ is still exemplary, which is really what matters...

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 02:33 PM
I don't have test equip. so I just use the test results that John Atkinson got. :p:

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 03:23 PM
Think outside the speaker box. Get a SS amp with high clipping headroom
and install 'DSP' to mimick your tube amp distortion sonic signature vs. spending
big dollars on tube amps with esoteric components. People frown upon this
because they feel cheated when there is a simple pathway. There is no
benefit from a marketing point of view -> why sell a SS DSP amp for $500
when they know people will buy the $20k esoteric tube amp. lol

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 03:39 PM
Yeah, if only DSP technology was quite at that point.

JimJ
10-30-2006, 03:42 PM
Get a SS amp with high clipping headroom
and install 'DSP' to mimick your tube amp distortion sonic signature vs. spending
big dollars on tube amps with esoteric components.

But...that's...not...the...point. I'm not saying there's justification for really, really high priced components, but IMO, there's something an amplifier with under 10 parts in the entire signal chain offers that no combination of SS parts does. Yes, you can make them sound identical, but is it the same? Well, that answer depends on your own perspective :)


when there is a simple pathway.

Simple pathway? DSP isn't so simple from a technical standpoint, that's for sure :) An analog front end driving a SET output stage is as simple and minimalistic as it gets.


Good transformers are hard to find, and EXPENSIVE...

Yup :( Especially good air gapped ones...

joetama
10-30-2006, 04:28 PM
But...that's...not...the...point. I'm not saying there's justification for really, really high priced components, but IMO, there's something an amplifier with under 10 parts in the entire signal chain offers that no combination of SS parts does. Yes, you can make them sound identical, but is it the same? Well, that answer depends on your own perspective :)



Simple pathway? DSP isn't so simple from a technical standpoint, that's for sure :) An analog front end driving a SET output stage is as simple and minimalistic as it gets.



Yup :( Especially good air gapped ones...


^Agreed.... Pretty much all around.....

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 04:44 PM
That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way ;)

GordonW
10-30-2006, 05:03 PM
Think outside the speaker box. Get a SS amp with high clipping headroom
and install 'DSP' to mimick your tube amp distortion sonic signature vs. spending
big dollars on tube amps with esoteric components. People frown upon this
because they feel cheated when there is a simple pathway. There is no
benefit from a marketing point of view -> why sell a SS DSP amp for $500
when they know people will buy the $20k esoteric tube amp. lol

Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.

Seen many a studio pro... recording engineers, etc... marvel at all the crap people buy to EMULATE a tube amp... when they usually could just BUY one in the first place, and save all the time and trouble. Apparently, time wasted isn't worth money, to some people...

Regards,
Gordon.

joetama
10-30-2006, 05:11 PM
That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way ;)

Yes I agree. This is what I always have learned too! Signal Path FTW!


Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.

Seen many a studio pro... recording engineers, etc... marvel at all the crap people buy to EMULATE a tube amp... when they usually could just BUY one in the first place, and save all the time and trouble. Apparently, time wasted isn't worth money, to some people...

Regards,
Gordon.

That seems rather obvious but people don't get it. Same reason some bands still tour with B3 Pianos with REAL Leslies.... Nothing sounds like them even though they have tried....

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 06:35 PM
1. DSP's have been used for a long time to create musical instrument sounds
more complicated that tube amp distortion. Don't underestimate digital effects.

I have a $300 guitar amp with DSP that mimicks certain Marshall, Fender, Mesa Boogie, etc., tube amps;
12 different amps in DSP with from clean to distorted tones. I'm sure you can get better DSP's in higher end gear.

2. I can see where a studio would want tube gear to add distortion to
the recording mix, but I was thinking that the performer {ie guitar player}
would use his own gear to generate a specific tone, otherwise there is
no advantage to tube circuits for making recordings unless you want to add
tube amp distortion special effects. I'm sure someone wants this so it exists.

3. There is no proof in audio that a short or minimalist signal path = best SQ.
Do you see a mimimal signal path here; http://www.atlserver.net/d/10296-2/100_0183.jpg

Why is it ok to have a huge signal path when recording your source material
but all of a sudden, it's bad if you have one for playback? If it was bad, then
your source would be poor. There are poor recording and the root cause of
the recording can be attributed to many issues.

4. In a previous post it was said that a certain tube has the best linear
performance of any electronic device implying that this is mandatory in audio
design. On the other hand, lets look at Nelson Pass and his designs. He likes
to use vertical mosfet transistors, one of the worse kind for audio if you examine
it's linear performance. Point is, a quality amplifier is judged by it's complete design, not
by a single component that is good. The best component in the world won't make your
amplifier work if it's not designed well.

5. If you listened to a musical instrument live and like the sound, then why would you
want to add 'more coloration' to the natural sound of the instrument? There is no tubes
in acoustical guitars, saxaphones, pianos, etc. lol

Because, among others, the musical instrument industry has proven that NO DSP available now, actually sounds EXACTLY like a tube amp.
I bet they didn't ABX the test, lol... and did they try to dupe all the tube amps in the world? What I mean is, not every tube amp design
will have the same overload performance so if you try to mimick a tube amp via DSP, which ones were chosen? lol ..

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 06:47 PM
That's the branch on the Audiophile tree that Jim and I have in common. I'm all about: simple path = pure reproduction of sound. Whether it is a fools view of audio or not; I do not know, but it's been working well for me that way ;)

It's also nice to learn the truth about audio in spite that you may have
personal preferences. I have preferences - just because - , but I know
the audible effects, if any for each case. It's nice to educate yourself to know
the issues.

I've done D/A to ADC tests where I sabotaged the signal path by
doing extra extra converstions vs. digital pathway up to the audio amp.

Result: nobody can tell the difference. Not only is the signal path much longer,
the signal is being 'hacked' to bits {pun} many times over. lol

This is funny because many people in the audio world insist they need
external 'special' DAC's, they insist that only 1 conversion is done, but
I know these people would fail a blind test because nobody has ears
as good as test equipment.

An interesting blind test would be MP3 vs. uncompressed audio.

At what bit rate do people start to hear a difference? They will fail at
some compression rate. If compressed music is not audible, then why
would a pure signal taking a long path be audible ?

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 06:48 PM
3. There is no proof in audio that a short or minimalist signal path = best SQ.
Do you see a mimimal signal path here; http://www.atlserver.net/d/10296-2/100_0183.jpg

Why is it ok to have a huge signal path when recording your source material
but all of a sudden, it's bad if you have one for playback? If it was bad, then
your source would be poor. There are poor recording and the root cause of
the recording can be attributed to many issues.



1)My ear is my proof :D


2)It's not ok, that's why 95% of all pop recordings sound like crap :crap:

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 06:54 PM
1)My ear is my proof :D


2)It's not ok, that's why 95% of all pop recordings sound like crap :crap:


* Unless your test is controlled, it's just a gut feeling.

* You bought almost every pop music CD to examine ?

I could be wrong, but I don't think pop music is engineered for SQ as the
the main objective, that market is more interested in other aspects of the sound.

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 06:56 PM
1)Yes.


2)Yes. :p:

joetama
10-30-2006, 06:59 PM
Honestly if I hear another person "QUOTE" or mention an ABX test I am going to drive to their house and put a soldering iron in both of their ears. Then I’m going to break their fingers so that they can’t type this CRAP anymore.... It's seriously the lamest excuse anyone has ever come up with why something isn't better than something else. Hearing is subjective get over it!!! I know I know you are going to say they are designed to find if two things actually do sound worlds different, well I leave it at that. But, think about the exact terms of what the test is testing and what we are actually buying, listening to, and watching. If I go to the store and listen to something with special cables, power condition, different CD Players, different Amps, TUBES, NO TUBES, and I like something and I buy it, its because it had something that caught my eye or ear rather. What I am trying to say is you can spout off all the technical jargon you want all day everyday, but it comes down to what people like, ABX or NO ABX. If you live in a world where you believe that everything has to be and pass an ABX test to go into your system well then I am happy for you, but I don’t want your system. I’m happy with my own which probably wouldn’t pass your ABX testing on several levels. However, I would almost guaranty you with 100% certainty that most people could tell the difference between something like a REAL B3 with a Leslie and a synthesized one. Oh and DSP “effect” boxes sound like balls....

joetama
10-30-2006, 07:00 PM
Oh on a brighter note.... I <3 U BEAT!!!!

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 07:34 PM
Awww :cuddle: :inlove:

thylantyr
10-30-2006, 07:44 PM
I am going to drive to their house and put a soldering iron in both of their ears.

Do you know who I am?

I’m going to break their fingers so that they can’t type this CRAP anymore....

.. I'm the Juggernaut B*tch!.......... your soldering irons can't hurt me....
.... I'm gunna hit you with your own pimped tube amp .....

:laugh:

Beat_Dominator
10-30-2006, 07:59 PM
:p:

Oh B&W_EE...... the ABX test results are in. They say that you actually do not <3 me :crying:

joetama
10-30-2006, 08:19 PM
Hahah... I'm booking my ticket to AZ right now.....

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 12:25 PM
:uhoh:

joetama
10-31-2006, 12:49 PM
:uhoh:

Hahaha... Don't worry I forgive you!!!

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 01:08 PM
What if t00bs were not made out of glass......what if they were, like, wood?!?! :eyebrow:

DsrtJeeper
10-31-2006, 02:04 PM
Anyone who has even barely delved into the Audiophile realm will quickly learn that these people that love that "warm" sound of tubes are totally conceited.

It's like these people *cough* Jack Frost *cough* think that they know something that 90% of all other audio connoisseurs don't. The truth is that Tube fans are like Corvette owners. They think they own the ultimate driving machine and thus their **** don't stink, but in reality, they are too poor to step to a real machine and are thus left to rule the trailer park.

One day maybe they'll see, that there's more to audio that disgustingly high noise floor and embellished recreation of recordings....:crap:

I had to dig this one up. I run an 18 watt SET tube amp and really enjoy it. I'm far from snobbish or feeling elite. I run solid state in the living room as well. Tubes relax me more without the graininess of some ss. I enjoy listening with lights off while watching the glow of the tubes. Also; tube rolling is fun and just by switching tubes you can obtain a different sound. It's a personal thing and no more.

Flipx99
10-31-2006, 02:12 PM
What is solid state? Is that a normal amplifier?

mattmcss
10-31-2006, 02:13 PM
yup

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 02:14 PM
I had to dig this one up. I run an 18 watt SET tube amp and really enjoy it. I'm far from snobbish or feeling elite. I run solid state in the living room as well. Tubes relax me more without the graininess of some ss. I enjoy listening with lights off while watching the glow of the tubes. Also; tube rolling is fun and just by switching tubes you can obtain a different sound. It's a personal thing and no more.

JimJ and you can be best buddies. He's a total t00b freak ;)

ramos
10-31-2006, 03:12 PM
JimJ and you can be best buddies. He's a total t00b freak ;)

Maybe Jim would take him for a ride in the batcave. I've had the honor of sitting in the captains chair , but no ride yet :(

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 03:16 PM
:crying: that's a sad story ramos :(

ramos
10-31-2006, 03:37 PM
Tis the way of tube master :(

JimJ
10-31-2006, 03:39 PM
I had to dig this one up. I run an 18 watt SET tube amp and really enjoy it. I'm far from snobbish or feeling elite. I run solid state in the living room as well. Tubes relax me more without the graininess of some ss. I enjoy listening with lights off while watching the glow of the tubes. Also; tube rolling is fun and just by switching tubes you can obtain a different sound. It's a personal thing and no more.

Pictures of your setup?

I think this thread backfired on you, Evan...it brought all the freaks out to play...

:D

DsrtJeeper
10-31-2006, 04:01 PM
Pictures of your setup?

I think this thread backfired on you, Evan...it brought all the freaks out to play...

:D

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6490&stc=1&d=1162324855

Flipx99
10-31-2006, 04:03 PM
How much something like that run?

JimJ
10-31-2006, 04:04 PM
Ooh, Almarro...

I'm in the middle of looking for a new preamp :( Never go seperates, you'll always be swapping one thing or the other out, lol...

JimJ
10-31-2006, 04:06 PM
How much something like that run?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0204/almarroa318a.htm

$1,500 new.

They also make a little brother to that one, that uses EL84 tubes in pentode mode...I think that one is $850ish or so. I've looked into that company before, that amp was familiar...

Flipx99
10-31-2006, 04:08 PM
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0204/almarroa318a.htm

$1,500 new.

They also make a little brother to that one, that uses EL84 tubes in pentode mode...I think that one is $850ish or so. I've looked into that company before, that amp was familiar...

Nice...a little out of my price range, especially when my friend's son bashes one of those tubes with a hammer. I still like the looks of it, but I doubt I could distingish the sound. We have too many sonic booms at work for stuff like that.


RIP RMS clamp meter.

DsrtJeeper
10-31-2006, 04:15 PM
How much something like that run?

I believe it runs around $1800.00 new. I bought mine as a dealer demo. Many of the finest tube amps come from China and Japan. This one is from China. Just search for "Almarro." You wouldn't believe the slam this amp puts on an efficient 8ohm or higher speaker. SET or single ended triode amps tend to draw you into the music instead of laying it infront of you. Vocalist, instruments and musicians are right in your room with a good recording. This amp is not sluggish like many low powered tube amps.

DsrtJeeper
10-31-2006, 04:17 PM
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0204/almarroa318a.htm

$1,500 new.

They also make a little brother to that one, that uses EL84 tubes in pentode mode...I think that one is $850ish or so. I've looked into that company before, that amp was familiar...

Yup. Great review.

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 04:35 PM
I wub all of the audiophiles :inlove:


Just a little less love for you t00b bastards :p:

ramos
10-31-2006, 04:37 PM
I wub all of the audiophiles :inlove:


Just a little less love for you t00b bastards :p:



Still think Jim needs to replace his front plate with one that says Toob Fairy :)

JimJ
10-31-2006, 04:51 PM
You don't know what, we can find...

:D

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 05:00 PM
Get my pm last week Jimbo?

ramos
10-31-2006, 05:07 PM
You don't know what, we can find...

:D


I can have you a vinyl printed if you like . One of my freinds is co owner of salem signs and banners . Be weary of where you park the bat cave at night :D :)

ballstothewall
10-31-2006, 06:48 PM
Ooh, Almarro...

I'm in the middle of looking for a new preamp :( Never go seperates, you'll always be swapping one thing or the other out, lol...


Ain't that the truth...

joetama
10-31-2006, 08:08 PM
I want that amp that will do 125 Watts per channel with 6550's :).....

Beat_Dominator
10-31-2006, 08:28 PM
You would :rolleyes:

joetama
10-31-2006, 09:46 PM
Seriously did you check that thing out... It's pretty cool...

http://www.almarro.com/A50125A/A50125A.html

Beat_Dominator
11-01-2006, 12:33 AM
Not nearly as cool as this amp:

http://www.audioxsell.com/images/events/102006-rmaf/room-510/rmaf-06.jpg

200wpc :p:

http://www.amberwaveaudio.com/circuit-description.htm

JimJ
11-01-2006, 03:18 AM
Bah, those tube covering thingies are too fancy.

joetama
11-01-2006, 11:42 AM
Bah, those tube covering thingies are too fancy.

I think they are to protect you and the 304TL's.... Jesus.... My GP has some of them that they used in radar stations and world talk AM transmitters from WWII.....

Beat_Dominator
11-01-2006, 12:22 PM
Got to protect teh t00bz!!?!?!?

joetama
11-02-2006, 11:09 PM
Hey you know I want to spend $42,000 on a pair of 200 Watt tube amps when it's some what hard to get the 304TL's. Especially since there is no substitution for them either....

Beat_Dominator
11-03-2006, 12:10 AM
I need to win the lotto :fyi:

joetama
11-03-2006, 12:13 AM
I need to win the lotto :fyi:


HAHA I wish that every day of my life.... I'm thinking my next upgrade is going to be my sub.... This little MartinLogan Dynamo is starting to get on my nerves, the 703's can totally out drive it... :furious::uhoh::veryhapp::yumyum:

thylantyr
11-03-2006, 12:47 PM
$42,000 ?

Save some money and DIY.

$10
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270050029161&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=5881432175&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

lol

Beat_Dominator
11-03-2006, 01:13 PM
DIY is for poor people :fyi:

thylantyr
11-03-2006, 02:58 PM
Feed the hungry ?

Beat_Dominator
11-03-2006, 04:59 PM
<- is poor.

JimJ
11-03-2006, 06:26 PM
Sure, the tube is $10...

Bet those output transformers are in the $500 range each :)

That's one of the benefits of using common tubes, you don't need custom-wound transformers and chokes...how many other 340TL amps do you see out there? :)

JimJ
11-03-2006, 06:35 PM
Would rather go with these...

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-AMPEREX-833A-TRANSMITTING-TUBES-R79_W0QQitemZ270049382734QQihZ017QQcategoryZ48710Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

200W, single ended...

heck of a lot more common

Stereo amp could be DIY'ed for under $2k

wang chung

Beat_Dominator
11-04-2006, 12:06 AM
Lame.

desertheat
11-04-2006, 12:37 AM
<<< prefere the OTL.. I want to try Bruce's BEAST sooooo bad. 165w of otl power baby! Has to be crazy...

Going to work with the t-16's first though.

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Beast%20OTL.htm

JimJ
11-04-2006, 12:42 AM
I'm too poor for OTLs, I'd rather pay the money up front and retube 2 tubes per channel every three years rather than 20 tubes at a time :D

But you can't really beat them for the wow-factor...:)

desertheat
11-04-2006, 12:58 AM
The little russian military 6C19PI tube they use in the t16 kit is a rugged little bastard :) I think you can get allot longer life out of it than a couple of years hehehe. And it is CHEAP! You can get 10 for $20 *LOL*

Beat_Dominator
11-06-2006, 12:11 AM
Tsk tsk, replacing parts FTL :thumbsdo:

89Vette
11-06-2006, 12:18 AM
So does it cross out all the jokes about corvette owners and tube owners if say..."someone I know" owns both a corvette and a tube??? :crap:

Beat_Dominator
11-06-2006, 12:22 AM
That's like 2 strikes....... I'd feel bad for that "someone" ;)

azbass
11-06-2006, 12:23 AM
vett and or tubes?

i dont think that guy knows the OP

ramos
11-08-2006, 09:43 AM
My fender twin died on me the other day :crying: hoping it's just the tubes :(

ramos
11-08-2006, 09:44 AM
I will say this in defense of the longevity of tubes, the set in my fender are the original GE's from 1970 :)

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 12:17 PM
36 years is weaksauce!

thylantyr
11-08-2006, 03:39 PM
Comedy.

Ramos said

I will say this in defense of the longevity of tubes, the set in my fender are the original GE's from 1970

Ramos's SIG
5 % equipment
90 % install
5% beer


That car audio rule of thumb, 5% equipment, 90% install, 5% beer,
why doesn't it apply to home audio ? If it does apply to home audio,
then your 1970's tube amp only makes a 5% impact in your sound system?

/hehehehehe
/being silly

:toast: :*******:

ramos
11-08-2006, 03:42 PM
only thing tube related in my arsenal is my fender twin , and my marshall half stack. Blues just doesn't sound the same with solid state :)

ballstothewall
11-08-2006, 03:43 PM
Send that halfstack my way, I want one in the dorm...

ramos
11-08-2006, 03:43 PM
Texas special pickups and fender tube amp = the sound of texas blues :)

ballstothewall
11-08-2006, 03:45 PM
My roommate wants to trade you a Marshall Valvetronix VS100 combo and some cash for that half stack...
:laugh:

ramos
11-08-2006, 03:47 PM
THe half stack is older than I . It was procured by a friend who was a roadie for the marshall tucker band . :)

joetama
11-08-2006, 03:53 PM
THe half stack is older than I . It was procured by a friend who was a roadie for the marshall tucker band . :)

My old man did PA Sound Reinforcement for The Marshall Tucker Band a couple of times.... Small world, maybe they know each other haha....

Don't sell that half stack!!!!

ballstothewall
11-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Dang, I didn't realize that they had discovered electricity that long ago... ;)

ramos
11-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Don't sell that half stack!!!!

It's not going anywhere ;) It needs a power transformer, otherwise I would fart around with it instead of the fender. Boy my neighbors would love me then :)

ramos
11-08-2006, 04:04 PM
Dang, I didn't realize that they had discovered electricity that long ago... ;)

Yeah electricity was around , we even had this pretty cool thing called a radio :p: :)

joetama
11-08-2006, 04:15 PM
Hey beat, did you ever sell that parasound thing you were pushing on here?

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 04:28 PM
Nope, too lazy to take good enough pictures to list on eBay.


You want it? :p:

joetama
11-08-2006, 04:41 PM
Nope, too lazy to take good enough pictures to list on eBay.


You want it? :p:

Maybe.... I've been thinking about it, since I have the 703's and my dad got the 804S i need a processor/amp for the DM330i's. It's a shame to keep a classic silent. What was the skinny on it? I forget...

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 04:45 PM
http://www.parasound.com/halo/p3.php

It got great reviews :)

joetama
11-08-2006, 04:48 PM
Thinking about it man seriously thinking about it.... PM the price if you would like.... I would couple it with a Tascam CDA-500 and a H||H Audio V800.... Thinking it would work well with those two....

joetama
11-08-2006, 04:48 PM
BTW, all of those things are solid state... ;)

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 04:51 PM
SS goodness :yumyum:

joetama
11-08-2006, 04:53 PM
That H||H V800 is one of my all time favorite amps.... The only think I have against it is it is very moody. And it always has a slight buzz when it's not being driven hard... Old School MOS-FET's FTW.....

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 05:03 PM
I don't have MOSFETs... I run IGBTs :p:

joetama
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
I don't have MOSFETs... I run IGBTs :p:

Not sure exactly what the RB-1080 is.... But i know it's class AB.... Hmmm I might have to do a little research now....

Beat_Dominator
11-08-2006, 05:15 PM
Probably has a Mosfet gain stage and a J-Fet output stage or some junk like that.

joetama
11-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Probably has a Mosfet gain stage and a J-Fet output stage or some junk like that.

Seems that that information is secret to Rotel or something... About ready to pull it apart and read the numbers on the transistors....