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Decado
09-28-2005, 04:09 PM
Ok, so soon I will have a ologyaudio component set and I will be putting the midwoofer in the door. I know I should be using some egg carton foad or a deflex pad behind the driver, except this proves to be a problem because the speaker location is near the top of the door so i can't just have the foam sitting in there because it would interfere with my window. Now, would it work if i had the foam egg carton attached (glued or something) to the back of the panel the speaker screws into with enough slack on it so that I can put the speaker in with the magnet just touching the foam?

bonesninja
09-28-2005, 04:11 PM
premade baffle? like these

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-olBAdgxM1uj/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=237XT52&g=762

Decado
09-28-2005, 04:13 PM
premade baffle? like these

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-olBAdgxM1uj/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=237XT52&g=762

Ahh, ok, sounds good thanks.

Edit: Is that going to work the same as egg carton foam or a deflex pad?

squeak9798
09-28-2005, 04:49 PM
Deflex pads are very thin. I can't see how those would interfer with your window operation at all :confused:

Decado
09-28-2005, 05:03 PM
Deflex pads are very thin. I can't see how those would interfer with your window operation at all :confused:

Do i glue the edges of the deflex pad on the backside of the panel the speaker screws into and when i put the speaker in just push it back?

squeak9798
09-28-2005, 05:23 PM
No man.

A deflex pad is installed on the wall opposite the speaker (i.e. your outter door skin), directly behind the speaker.

squeak9798
09-28-2005, 05:25 PM
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door7.jpg


Look through the speaker opening. See that black thing with the ridges on the outter doorskin? That's a deflex pad. And that's where they are installed.

Decado
09-28-2005, 05:25 PM
No man.

A deflex pad is installed on the wall opposite the speaker (i.e. your outter door skin), directly behind the speaker.

Therefore Window get's in the way... If I have the window down the deflex pad is blocked.

squeak9798
09-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Therefore Window get's in the way... If I have the window down the deflex pad is blocked.

Deal with it ;)


Nothing you can do about it. But it will help when the windows are up.

Decado
09-28-2005, 05:28 PM
Deal with it ;)


Nothing you can do about it. But it will help when the windows are up.

Well will that foam baffle work fine? Because using that I don't have to worry about the window being in the way.

Kicker1984
11-12-2008, 02:30 PM
is there a difference between Deflex pads and egg shell foam?

I used ensolite in my inner door panels as well... is this considered the same thing? Id like some more midbass from my components.

squeak9798
11-12-2008, 08:59 PM
is there a difference between Deflex pads and egg shell foam?

Yes.

Deflex pads are ridged rubber-type material that are designed to diffract the soundwaves so they do not reflect off of the opposite wall & bounce back to the speaker.

Egg crate foam is designed to absorb the sound waves so to keep them from bounding off an opposing wall and back to the speaker.

Their ultimate goal is the same.....their methods are different and depending on designs/thicknesses/etc could have differing effectiveness and bandwidth which they affect.


I used ensolite in my inner door panels as well... is this considered the same thing? Id like some more midbass from my components.

Egg crate foam and Deflex pads aren't going to help you with midbass output.

Give details of your install. What mids you are using, how and where they are installed, how well sealed the speaker's frontwave is from it's backwave, power & crossover point/slope, etc ?

redfred18t
11-12-2008, 10:01 PM
Therefore Window get's in the way... If I have the window down the deflex pad is blocked.

I highly doubt you will be able to hear a noticeable difference if you're driving with the windows open.

helotaxi
11-13-2008, 10:38 AM
^^^^Ding, ding, ding

Kicker1984
11-13-2008, 04:03 PM
Yes.

Deflex pads are ridged rubber-type material that are designed to diffract the soundwaves so they do not reflect off of the opposite wall & bounce back to the speaker.

Egg crate foam is designed to absorb the sound waves so to keep them from bounding off an opposing wall and back to the speaker.

Their ultimate goal is the same.....their methods are different and depending on designs/thicknesses/etc could have differing effectiveness and bandwidth which they affect.



Egg crate foam and Deflex pads aren't going to help you with midbass output.

Give details of your install. What mids you are using, how and where they are installed, how well sealed the speaker's frontwave is from it's backwave, power & crossover point/slope, etc ?


Im a noob when it comes to slopes and crossover points. So im not sure where Imprint set them at.

Im using Image Dynamics CTX65CS for my speakers. They're installed in an 05 Tacoma, doors are very well dynammated and i also added ensolite foam. I also have 1"mdf baffles behind the speakers. They are being powered by an Alpine PDX 4.150

this is exactly what i did in my setup....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/HPIM0801.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/Second%20Album/HPIM1508.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/Doorpic1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/Second%20Album/HPIM1547.jpg

ngsm13
11-13-2008, 04:19 PM
Deflex pads will not necessarily improve your midbass, but if you get them cheap they are beneficial and can't hurt.

nG

James Bang
11-13-2008, 04:52 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/Second%20Album/HPIM1547.jpg

yum. Exclusives.

squeak9798
11-13-2008, 06:53 PM
Im a noob when it comes to slopes and crossover points. So im not sure where Imprint set them at.


I would investigate that first. The Imprint settings may be what is causing the reduction in midbass output. Either via crossover point/slope, or it EQ'd too much out of the midbass.

If you did as pictured, then the install should be relatively solid. I'm not overly familiar with the CTX mids....being they are an entry level offering, you may simply be expecting too much out of them. I know some people weren't happy with the midbass output of the CX mids.

James Bang
11-13-2008, 06:56 PM
IMO, the imprint *****.. probably good for those who doesn't know how to tune for ****... which might be 80-90% (conservative figures) of the folks here.

FoxPro5
11-13-2008, 07:40 PM
Interesting how the visual memory works, but I swear that's a picture of cam2xrunner's truck from back in the day. :emb:

If you take an empty 5 gallon pail and yell into it, it's probably going to sound different if you put a Deflex pad in the bottom of it. All you have to do to hear when it becomes less and less effective is lower your voice. Crude experiment, but some people need to do this because all the science in the world will not convince them.

Same thing for closed cell foam. I can see it "softening" and otherwise hard surface, but to say that it's absorbing sound is a big stretch. Open cell foam can and does absorb sound waves because it's porous. But, absorption is velocity dependent and OCF that close to the the back of a driver isn't going to much of anything because the wave really hasn't gained much oomph. I've never liked the sound of any driver with OCF behind it. And, if a guy like John Krutke (Zaph Audio) who analyzes speakers and build enclosures says OCF is whack, I think that says a lot.

Kicker1984
11-13-2008, 08:01 PM
Interesting how the visual memory works, but I swear that's a picture of cam2xrunner's truck from back in the day. :emb:

If you take an empty 5 gallon pail and yell into it, it's probably going to sound different if you put a Deflex pad in the bottom of it. All you have to do to hear when it becomes less and less effective is lower your voice. Crude experiment, but some people need to do this because all the science in the world will not convince them.

Same thing for closed cell foam. I can see it "softening" and otherwise hard surface, but to say that it's absorbing sound is a big stretch. Open cell foam can and does absorb sound waves because it's porous. But, absorption is velocity dependent and OCF that close to the the back of a driver isn't going to much of anything because the wave really hasn't gained much oomph. I've never liked the sound of any driver with OCF behind it. And, if a guy like John Krutke (Zaph Audio) who analyzes speakers and build enclosures says OCF is whack, I think that says a lot.


Yes they are Cams pics. I just used his walk through from toyotanation and i did the same thing to my truck. I just dont have pics of my work.

Do you recommend me cutting out a pattern for a deflex pad behind my driver?

Kicker1984
11-13-2008, 08:03 PM
I would investigate that first. The Imprint settings may be what is causing the reduction in midbass output. Either via crossover point/slope, or it EQ'd too much out of the midbass.

If you did as pictured, then the install should be relatively solid. I'm not overly familiar with the CTX mids....being they are an entry level offering, you may simply be expecting too much out of them. I know some people weren't happy with the midbass output of the CX mids.


Whats the average midbass frequency range?

Ive had some Focals in there before which ran my 300+ i know they arent high end speakers but the ID's sound so much better.

Kicker1984
11-13-2008, 08:08 PM
IMO, the imprint *****.. probably good for those who doesn't know how to tune for ****... which might be 80-90% (conservative figures) of the folks here.

I actually get better midbass with imprint and a more balance feel to my music than me tweaking it myself. But then again i dont know **** about eqing.

I notice with imprint that my driver side has more midbass than my right, but this is probably because i had the mic read the driver side. I might try another mic read and have it eq the center of my cab. :crap:

James Bang
11-13-2008, 08:11 PM
I actually get better midbass with imprint and a more balance feel to my music than me tweaking it myself. But then again i dont know **** about eqing.

I notice with imprint that my driver side has more midbass than my right, but this is probably because i had the mic read the driver side. I might try another mic read and have it eq the center of my cab. :crap:

that's because the lame imprint T/A the system to have all the speakers have equal distance from the listening position... which will put the center image right in front of you, where it doesn't belong.

Vestax
11-13-2008, 08:33 PM
that's because the lame imprint T/A the system to have all the speakers have equal distance from the listening position... which will put the center image right in front of you, where it doesn't belong.

Hello Pioneer, that's why auto-eqing blows. Thank you.

James Bang
11-13-2008, 08:35 PM
Hello Pioneer, that's why auto-eqing blows. Thank you.

:wave:

helotaxi
11-14-2008, 08:27 AM
that's because the lame imprint T/A the system to have all the speakers have equal distance from the listening position... which will put the center image right in front of you, where it doesn't belong.

For a competition system, the rules agree with you. For a system built for personal listening pleasure, I completely disagree.

For example, I spend 99% of my time in my car by myself and I don't compete so why would I set it up to where stage center is to my right if I could set it up to be directly in front of me? On the rare occasions that I do have someone else in the car, it's either a friend and the stereo is turned way down so we can carry on a conversation or it's my wife who wouldn't notice the difference if I demonstrated it to her (which I did in the last car, lol). With the main goal of pleasing myself (so to speak) in mind, centering the image on the center of the dash instead of in front of me is akin to paying for premium concert tickets and choosing to sit 5th row outside section when 5th row center seats were available for the same price.

FoxPro5
11-14-2008, 01:22 PM
For example, I spend 99% of my time in my car by myself and I don't compete so why would I set it up to where stage center is to my right if I could set it up to be directly in front of me? On the rare occasions that I do have someone else in the car, it's either a friend and the stereo is turned way down so we can carry on a conversation or it's my wife who wouldn't notice the difference if I demonstrated it to her (which I did in the last car, lol). With the main goal of pleasing myself (so to speak) in mind, centering the image on the center of the dash instead of in front of me is akin to paying for premium concert tickets and choosing to sit 5th row outside section when 5th row center seats were available for the same price.

Where is the left boundary of your stage? 3' outside the pillar? How about the right side boundary?

FoxPro5
11-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Do you recommend me cutting out a pattern for a deflex pad behind my driver?

No.

Midbass is roughly 80-300 hz. An 80hz wave is 14 feet long. It's just going to ignore a Deflex pad.

squeak9798
11-14-2008, 07:36 PM
Where is the left boundary of your stage?

Same question I was going to ask......LOL

FoxPro5
11-14-2008, 08:35 PM
Same question I was going to ask......LOL

I'm really interested. It must be very odd hearing sound come from way outside your car like that. How stereo can exceed the limit of the furthermost speaker by a wide margin is some thing I need the hear. :)

And if center stage is right in front of you, how do you aim the right side speakers so that that each side of the stage is equal in size?

If I sit in the first row on the right hand side of a concert I sure don't expect the band to get up and move in front of me. :p:

James Bang
11-15-2008, 01:06 AM
If the artist is singing right in front of you, he sure is far off to the left of the stage, along with the drummer. So then the drums singer and a guitarist is on the left. The guitarist on the right is alllll by himself... poor guy, he must be lonely over there.

With time alignment, you can delay the left speakers as far as you want, but the speakers are still physically at the same place, so with left-biased cues in a song plays independent from the rest of the material (redundant, I know) the sound will NOT sound as far as you delayed the speakers to be.

Helotaxi, do yourself a favor and unsquish your stage away from the left and tell the singer and the drummer they belong centerstage... those silly guys.

You still have front row seats, you'll just be a little to the left when you're driving. But when you're parked, just turn your head the slightest to the right and you'll magically be in the in the middle.

helotaxi
11-15-2008, 11:55 AM
Where is the limit of the soundstage on a set of quality headphones? Seriously? I've never heard about anyone complaining about the narrow stage width with a set of phones. And actually my last setup that had T/A available, the left side did seem slightly wider than the pillars. Sitting in the middle is sitting in the middle. Think about is this way. It's possible to get proper staging in a narrower stage and the benefit to me is that I can be in the center of that stage. This is as opposed to having a stage width as wide as the car with me sitting at extreme audience-right.

We're talking a basic philosophical difference here guys. Its similar to the difference between "sound quality" and "pleasing." The location of center stage as defined by most of the SQ sanctioning bodies is one thing. What I prefer in my own car going down the highway is something else. I don't set my stuff up to their standards in this regard because I'm not building it for them. If they were a consideration, I'd have a preset for their listening pleasure. I'm not saying that mine is "right," for everyone but it's right for me.

FoxPro5
11-15-2008, 02:38 PM
Where is the limit of the soundstage on a set of quality headphones? Seriously? I've never heard about anyone complaining about the narrow stage width with a set of phones.

What's the stereo crosstalk on a pair of headphones? ;)


It's possible to get proper staging in a narrower stage and the benefit to me is that I can be in the center of that stage. This is as opposed to having a stage width as wide as the car with me sitting at extreme audience-right.

Fine. Is the sound compressed, though? What slopes do you use on the drivers to achieve this?


I'm not saying that mine is "right," for everyone but it's right for me.

Totally cool. I'm just genuinely interested in what your car sounds like because I don't think I could get mine to sound like yours if I tried. I'd have to go panned mono with some type of array on the dash.

James Bang
11-15-2008, 02:40 PM
Figure out how far right and left your stage is. Centerstage is in the center of both sides.

If you like a left biased soundstage, then good for you.

James Bang
11-15-2008, 04:50 PM
Let me try to put it in anoter way...

Spread your woman's legs. Where her feet/ankles are is where the left and right of the stage is. What you want to do is stick it right between her legs (center focus). If you're off to the left or right, you'll probably hit her thighs, but that's okay, because rubbing the inner thighs can arouse her, but dead center is where the spot is... for her and for you.

If you're very far off to where her feet/ankles are, then you're just sucking her toes or licking her ankles, which might get her going, but it'll do nothing for you... this is all assuming one leg isn't shorter than the other.

Lets say you want to raise your soundstage higher and ***** **** her. It'll be best if both her **** are the same size, then again, you want to sticking right in between...

Helotaxi, what you're doing is rubbing/poking her left thigh and caressing her left ******. You might have a fetish for that, but it's not how she wants and needs it. Stop being selfish and give to her right.

:D

squeak9798
11-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Where is the limit of the soundstage on a set of quality headphones? Seriously?

Fox hit the nail on the head.



It's possible to get proper staging in a narrower stage and the benefit to me is that I can be in the center of that stage.

We're talking a basic philosophical difference here guys.

My comment wasn't meant to be condescending. But the above sentences already address my "concern". I was simply thinking that with moving the center to that far over, it would significantly narrow the soundstage. For you this is a beneficial trade-off.....more power to ya :)

helotaxi
11-15-2008, 05:23 PM
Helotaxi, what you're doing is rubbing/poking her left thigh and caressing her left ******. You might have a fetish for that, but it's not how she wants and needs it. Stop being selfish and give to her right.

:D

Actually what you're suggesting is to hit it from the side. I'm happier with her not spreading as far, moving her right in front of me and hitting it in the middle.

shaneb
11-15-2008, 05:35 PM
Wow, this should be stickied.
This is the most intelligent thread I have ever read on ca.com.
Okay, I think I have some misconceptions. I understood it so that the goal of staging and imaging would be so that the stage would be front and center of drivers seat, yes this would create a wider right stage and narrower left stage but would that not appeal to the driver best? unless you were attempting a two seat stage thus creating it to where the stage is as wide as both seats so that driver and passenger could enjoy.

Now I understand that helotaxi does it that way, because it's the best way for him to enjoy music by himself. But that is not how it is judged? The original idea of staging and imaging is to bring the stage across the whole dash of the car? thus creating the effect for both driver and passenger, and making it as though i owuld be sitting maybe 2 seats to the left, front row?

Whoa. This is fascinating.

Wait, i just reread my post, it makes it a super narrow stage the way helo is doing it...hmmm.

squeak9798
11-15-2008, 06:02 PM
I understood it so that the goal of staging and imaging would be so that the stage would be front and center of drivers seat,

No.

It's to be centered to the car itself, not the driver.

Unless you're helotaxi :p:


unless you were attempting a two seat stage thus creating it to where the stage is as wide as both seats so that driver and passenger could enjoy.

The width and centering of the stage really has nothing to do with how many passengers the system was designed to please. You can create a soundstage that is centered on the car itself and wider than the car itself from the driver's seat that sounds like crap from the passenger side. Use of time alignment between left & right speakers will inherently create this effect.


Now I understand that helotaxi does it that way, because it's the best way for him to enjoy music by himself. But that is not how it is judged?

No.


The original idea of staging and imaging is to bring the stage across the whole dash of the car?

Centered on the dash and ideally extending beyond the A-pillars in width.

Again, unless you're helotaxi :D


thus creating the effect for both driver and passenger,

Again, the width and centering of the stage from one seat does not mean the opposing seat will experience identical soundstaging.

Time alignment is a perfect example of this. Time align the left and right drivers for the drivers seat, creating a centered (to the car) sound stage and the passenger side will image like crap.

helotaxi
11-15-2008, 06:10 PM
Yes, I'm just that ****ing special. Get used to it :D

Horsemanwill
11-15-2008, 06:18 PM
shane was right this is one of the best reads in ca.com i've came across. and james i love your anologies lol

Horsemanwill
11-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Well will that foam baffle work fine? Because using that I don't have to worry about the window being in the way.


DO not get the foam baffle thing they ****.

donpisto
11-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Hello Pioneer, that's why auto-eqing blows. Thank you.

Can't it still be adjust with the imprint? Maybe I'm thinking of the H650, but that uses the imprint also. I could have sworn that along auto tuning you can manually fine tune it. Correct me if I'm wrong sine I was planning on going this route for my setup, otherwise, going with the aftermarket route and using the H701 will cost me about 1,500 (that's using the w200).

FoxPro5
11-15-2008, 08:46 PM
Not only does helotaxi like ram his unit into his old lady's thigh, but also likes to ignore my questions.!! :p::D

Seriously though, a lot of guys (including moi) hack the bejusus out of the sides of their car just to try and get equal path lengths and get the drivers as far away from their ears as possible. Competitors extend the rails on their seats to increase them even further. If you own a McLaren F1, you're golden but if you are always sitting front row to the left of the band (right in front of the lead guitar) you're trying to create a phantom image that is only as good as placement and aiming.

I can only imagine the "best" way to get the center of the stage to be in front of you (and mid-way between the outer boundaries) is either to add significant T/A to the entire right side of the car.....or.......move the right side speakers closer. If you did this, you'd have to make a box for your midrange and put it where passenger's feet would be and move your A pillar or sail panel-mounted tweeter over 3' and duct tape it to the top of the dash. :confused:

Different vectors for different folks, I guess.......

donpisto
11-15-2008, 08:49 PM
Let me try to put it in anoter way...

Spread your woman's legs. Where her feet/ankles are is where the left and right of the stage is. What you want to do is stick it right between her legs (center focus). If you're off to the left or right, you'll probably hit her thighs, but that's okay, because rubbing the inner thighs and arouse her, but dead center is where the spot is... for her and for you.

If you're very far off to where her feet/ankles are, then you're just sucking her toes or licking her ankles, which might get her going, but it'll do nothing for you... this is all assuming one leg isn't shorter than the other.

Lets say you want to raise your soundstage higher and ***** **** her. It'll be best if both her **** are the same size, then again, you want to sticking right in between...

Helotaxi, what you're doing is rubbing/poking her left thigh and caressing her left ******. You might have a fetish for that, but it's not how she wants and needs it. Stop being selfish and give to her right.

:D

Best explanation ever. Period!

See, I think the misconception people get is that it sounds better being that the VOCALS are in front of the driver. Here is what a few others are trying to say. Sure you have the vocalist directly in front of you and it sounds fine and dandy, louder if you must say (there is volume knob for that ;)), but what if you play a song where you have two vocalists? One on each side of the stage and then a third jumps in center stage.

You also lose what the artist is trying to deliver through their music. I have messed with Adobe Soundbooth and have seen the crazy things you can do with editing music and I got a glimpse of what some of those gurus do. Why does this matter? Because sometimes you have certain instruments that play in specific locations on the stage. It can be up higher than center stage or lower. It can also, more importantly in this situation, be further left or right. Maybe once instrument is halfway from the center to the left and another kicks in all the way to the left. With the center stage in the center of the vehicle, you will notice that difference. With it in front of you, you will not.

Wanna test it out? There is a track on the IASCA disc with 7 drums, see if you notice the spacing between them. If you hear 4 or 5 of them coming from the same spot, your stage is way off.

Lingerfelt
11-15-2008, 08:54 PM
If you own a McLaren F1, you're golden


Such a shame they didn't come with a radio, eh? ;)

FoxPro5
11-15-2008, 08:56 PM
Wanna test it out? There is a track on the IASCA disc with 7 drums, see if you notice the spacing between them. If you hear 4 or 5 of them coming from the same spot, your stage is way off.

I agree with what you said, but that 7 drum hit track is not very good. Ever try it in a perfect stereo set up with equal PL between your ears and the L/R speakers and the correct crosstalk? It still sounds like hits 1,2 and 6,7 are on top of each other. I've never gotten it right in my car and I know others who say it's of little relevance as well.

Listen to Roger Water's "Amused to Dealth" which is recorded in quadraphonic sound and mixed with QSound. If you have a narrow stage with that, I feel very very sorry for you.

shaneb
11-15-2008, 09:08 PM
http://www.caraudiomag.com/reviews/caep_0804_imprint/multeq_filters.html
That's the review of Alpine's IMPRINT technology. It's rather fascinating and I think there is a very good place of use for it in car audio.
The review states that once you enable the IMPRINT feature, you are only able to adjust treble and bass. I beleive it would be awesome if you could use it as a reference point and fine tune from it. Maybe that will be a firmware update :).
This is great, okay, so I am understanding this properly. A correct sound stage, will be so fine tuned that it will create the ability to "see" different intruments in different areas on the stage, in proportion to eachother?
I gotta hear a good SQ car..

Horsemanwill
11-15-2008, 10:53 PM
wow who would have thought that you Shaneb would learn from this place lol

donpisto
11-16-2008, 12:57 AM
I agree with what you said, but that 7 drum hit track is not very good. Ever try it in a perfect stereo set up with equal PL between your ears and the L/R speakers and the correct crosstalk? It still sounds like hits 1,2 and 6,7 are on top of each other. I've never gotten it right in my car and I know others who say it's of little relevance as well.

Listen to Roger Water's "Amused to Dealth" which is recorded in quadraphonic sound and mixed with QSound. If you have a narrow stage with that, I feel very very sorry for you.

That's true, I wouldn't use it as a single measurement. I actually hate that track because drums 1, 2, and 3 seem like they come from the same place for me, but the rest are spaced out. I'll check out the song you mentioned as well, thanks :)

James Bang
11-16-2008, 01:44 AM
Dude is crazy... he can't even her spot right. I feel sorry for that woman.

He better hope I don't get a chance at it. Bang Bang!

donpisto
11-16-2008, 05:41 AM
Dude is crazy... he can't even her spot right. I feel sorry for that woman.

He better hope I don't get a chance at it. Bang Bang!

Easy with the double Bang tiger.

helotaxi
11-16-2008, 10:33 AM
Easy with the double Bang tiger.

Well that's all he's good for, 2 hump chump if ever I've seen one.

Your analogy *****, BTW. If everything was perfect, you'd be sitting exactly center and time alignment wouldn't be needed and everything would be great. She'd be straddling you and going to town. Reality is that you ARE lined up with one of her knees and her far foot is in cement along with your ***. Only way you're gonna hit that is by moving her near foot farther away and getting her to show you that she really is a gymnast. That has the exact effect of moving the center in line with you. If that's too much to grasp...nevermind probably too little...

FoxPro - how would doing time correction to the right side move the stage left? You can't advance only delay with every TA device I've ever seen. Only way to equal path lengths is to use the farthest driver as the reference and delay all the other drivers to match. Effect there is to make the near speakers seem farther away. And I fully understand the reason for going to great lengths to physically equalize the pathlengths, but that reason has more to do with angles than time and is also based on the artificial constraint of satisfying the desire of the sanctioning body which says that you should have a center image for both seats. This eliminates the possibility of using TA for optimizing imaging for a single seat and makes the pathlength equalization that much more important. Toss out that artificial limitation and a lot more is possible.

FoxPro5
11-16-2008, 12:05 PM
FoxPro - how would doing time correction to the right side move the stage left?

Sorry, I said it backwards. My particular DSP looks at length, not time so I have to T/A backward in my car. I was thinking in reference to myself, not to what you'd actually have to do in your car to make the right seem closer.

Either way, who cares...it's your car so rock it out.

James Bang
11-16-2008, 04:58 PM
Silly guy thinks my analogy ***** because he doesn't understand it.

IMO it sure beats your analogies w/ your headphones, which you seems to ignore FoxPro's mentioning of the crosstalk.

..no **** we wouldn't need T/A if everything was perfect w/ equal PLDs, but we're talking about cars.. Come back to reality.

What I see here is that you're actually trying to convince us that the center image belongs right in front of the driver/listening position. That's just crazy talk. That wouldn't even be a center image anymore. It'll be a left biased stage. I've never seen or heard your car and I know for sure that your left stage doesn't extend far enough to have an equal distance from the 'center' image as the right side.

Some people like to do lop-sided women and I will accept that. I'm afraid we will have more people like this as the imprint will spread its evil ways and lame Time Alignment method and have people believe that's how it's suppose to sound.

helotaxi
11-16-2008, 06:38 PM
You want to discuss cross talk? How much cross talk is there at a live venue? Where does HRTF factor in? How do we perceive sound origin? Can I reliably get the image rock solid in front of me? Not exactly, but why the hell would I not try and just accept that the center of the car is where it "should" be because some rulebook says so and not at least try to improve my seat compared to sitting to one side of the stage which you seem to think is perfectly fine? Do you intentionally sit off to one side when listening to your home system? Since you have to in the car, why wouldn't you try to improve on that with the tools at your disposal? Just because a rulebook (which has no bearing on anything outside the judging lanes of the sanctioning body governed by the rulebook) says that it should sound like you have bad seats? That's just dumb.

Just because you think your analogy is clever doesn't mean that it's accurate or fitting.

IDSkoT
11-16-2008, 06:45 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/Second%20Album/HPIM1547.jpg

Thanks for helping me realize how ****** plumber's strap looks like.

squeak9798
11-16-2008, 06:53 PM
You want to discuss cross talk? How much cross talk is there at a live venue?

Unamplified?

None. But then again, that's the original event and not a 2-channel reproduction of the event ;) You must have crosstalk between channels for stereo reproduction to function properly.


but why the hell would I not try and just accept that the center of the car is where it "should" be because some rulebook says so and not at least try to improve my seat compared to sitting to one side of the stage which you seem to think is perfectly fine?

I don't aim for center of the car because that's what a rule book says.

I aim for center of the car to aim for center of the listening space, not my listening position. And as was noted earlier, your method results in a reduced stage width......I would rather have a wide stage width with spaciousness between images in exchange for sitting slightly off-center.

Wider stage width will get you closer to an accurate reproduction of the original event.....unless it was recorded in a space 3/4 or less the width of an automobile.


Do you intentionally sit off to one side when listening to your home system?

If you stand up and walk across the room, do you expect the image to follow you or maintain it's relationship to the listening space and original event (which requires great width) ? ;)


why wouldn't you try to improve on that with the tools at your disposal?

Improve is a subjective term :p:

To me, you're method wouldn't be an improvement.

Some people still disagree that stereo was an improvement over mono. :shrugs:


Just because a rulebook (which has no bearing on anything outside the judging lanes of the sanctioning body governed by the rulebook) says that it should sound like you have bad seats?

See above.

I don't think anyone here, or at the very least myself, subscribes to the dogma of a center-vehicle image because of a rulebook. That's a little narrow-minded coming from you Helo.

helotaxi
11-16-2008, 07:11 PM
I can see where you're coming from, but wouldn't a better goal be to expand the perceived size of the listening environment? By delaying the near side speakers that's effectively what you're doing though I understand it isn't perfect due to the angular relationship between your seat and the physical location of the speakers. I can still "move" myself closer to the center by "moving" the near side speaker farther away. Yeah it ***** for the passenger because I've effectively rotated the stage and placed them to extreme stage left, basically looking right down the curtain line and slightly skewed the stage in relation to myself as well. I'm now at 15-30 deg off center compared to sitting in the outside section.

Oh and since there is nothing physically limiting the sound from the left side of the stage reaching your right ear, there is "crosstalk" as he referenced, even unamplified. "Crosstalk" is probably the wrong word though.


If you stand up and walk across the room, do you expect the image to follow you or maintain it's relationship to the listening space and original event (which requires great width) ?

Nope, sure don't, but I don't get up and walk across my car either :D. There's a sweet spot and I make sure that I'm in it.

FoxPro5
11-16-2008, 08:10 PM
Subscribed to see a picture of Helotaxi's car showing the physical location and aiming of the front stage drivers.

When you play "Thriller," where exactly do the foot steps start and end on your stage?

James Bang
11-16-2008, 08:12 PM
Delaying the nearest speakers... I think we're waaaaay beyond that.

The problem is you're not delaying your left speakers enough to get your center image equally between your left and right boundaries of your skewed stage.

Instead you've T/A how the imprint would and have your speakers delayed to where they are supposedly equal distance from your furthest speaker, which is how alpine recommends in their manuals. I guess you can call it their... rulebook.

****. I think I went against a rulebook.

helotaxi
11-17-2008, 08:02 PM
Subscribed to see a picture of Helotaxi's car showing the physical location and aiming of the front stage drivers.

When you play "Thriller," where exactly do the foot steps start and end on your stage?

Might have to wait a while on that one. still working on the system. Planning on taking a week off work to dedicate to the install in early Dec.

Kicker1984
11-17-2008, 08:49 PM
Do anyone of you guys live close to Temecula area? It would be nice to get my system adjusted by someone who knows how to do this stuff......

Pm me if someone is willing to help me out :)

James Bang
11-17-2008, 08:50 PM
Do anyone of you guys live close to Temecula area? It would be nice to get my system adjusted by someone who knows how to do this stuff......

Pm me if someone is willing to help me out :)

you just missed an IASCA show in riverside last Saturday. whomp whomp.