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brandontw
09-14-2005, 09:41 PM
I have recently become very interested in line arrays. I have also found that I know precious little about the theory behind it, their construction, integration and so on. So I am creating this thread to inform myself and others about line arrays in general. If your not interested, maybe you should be.

Anyway I am planning to build my first set of line array speakers, but I still have many questions. I plan to use: Sixteen - 4” full range speakers”
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=269-570
And one tweeter:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-070
Per speaker.

Here is my idea for the design:
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6372/4array6cs.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4array6cs.jpg)
But I’m not sure if two columns of speakers are cool, or if it should be just one. And I’m not sure what I should do about enclosure size, speaker placement, ect.

I’m also slightly confused about what type of crossover to use.

Other than answering my questions, I would like people to post any examples that they have, as well as personal experiences, websites, bla bla …

JimJ
09-14-2005, 09:58 PM
Two columns of speakers will distort the soundstage...go in one line.

brandontw
09-14-2005, 10:00 PM
Right'o-should I still use 16 speakers of maybye go down to 8? what about porting? I dont want this to sound tinny and shallow.

what about built in subs? i was thinking 2 small ones at the bottom on a 3-way crossover. mabye like these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-330

PV Audio
09-14-2005, 10:34 PM
16 high :up2somet:

JimJ
09-14-2005, 10:36 PM
This site has very good information on some esoteric loudspeaker designs (translation: **** that I get into, heh)

http://yu-ra.tripod.com/array.htm

http://yu-ra.tripod.com/audio/prop_sph.jpg

brandontw
09-15-2005, 02:03 AM
16 high :up2somet: what about 8 mids 1 tweet and 2 "subs"

brandontw
09-15-2005, 03:10 AM
Ok i need an honest opinion. im about to get 32 "nsb's" and then two of these tweeters-one to go with each set of 16.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804
will these tweeters be cool...enough?

IamDeMan
09-15-2005, 08:57 AM
Ok i need an honest opinion. im about to get 32 "nsb's" and then two of these tweeters-one to go with each set of 16.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804
will these tweeters be cool...enough?That tweeter is better than the one in your fist post since it's sensitivity is higher. I was thinking of this one http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-045 for the 93DB sensitivity or splurging on this planar http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-085

hoss
09-15-2005, 09:18 AM
what about 8 mids 1 tweet and 2 "subs"
your going to need more tweeters, and you probably wont need any subs... the whole concept behind line arrays is that lots of woofers have to move very little, and still have tons of output, and get lower than normal small speakers(at least thats the affect they create). porting, might not be a great idea, mostly because of the amount of fabrication and the difficulty of the port system...

http://www.stereointegrity.com/hometheater.html
look at these for some ideas, they sounded freaking awesome, and i could find out what kind of drivers were used if you want me to.

PV Audio
09-15-2005, 09:27 AM
more tweets, more tweets!

IamDeMan
09-15-2005, 09:41 AM
your going to need more tweeters, and you probably wont need any subs... the whole concept behind line arrays is that lots of woofers have to move very little, and still have tons of output, and get lower than normal small speakers(at least thats the affect they create). porting, might not be a great idea, mostly because of the amount of fabrication and the difficulty of the port system...

http://www.stereointegrity.com/hometheater.html
look at these for some ideas, they sounded freaking awesome, and i could find out what kind of drivers were used if you want me to.
Actually after searching line arrays, many use only one tweeter in home use. They just use one with a high sensitivity, then fiddle with many crossovers until it sounds right.

IamDeMan
09-15-2005, 10:29 AM
But I’m not sure if two columns of speakers are cool, or if it should be just one. And I’m not sure what I should do about enclosure size, speaker placement, ect.

I’m also slightly confused about what type of crossover to use.

Other than answering my questions, I would like people to post any examples that they have, as well as personal experiences, websites, bla bla …Corssovers seem to be a trial and error thing from what I'm reading here and there. if going for the best possible SQ crossover are an integral part in this alignment. I say just pick one for now and later down the road you can experiment with a different one and see how it changes your output.

For enlosure design if you reallly want to extend the lower frequency a bit you can go with a 5CUFT enclosure tuned to 65hz this will yield a 3db down at 55hz with a very sharp rollof under 55. Not the lowest but it should be good for most music and still have the ability to blend a sub into the setup at a later date. sealed at 3 cu ft will bring it to 103hz

brandontw
09-15-2005, 11:00 AM
Corssovers seem to be a trial and error thing from what I'm reading here and there. if going for the best possible SQ crossover are an integral part in this alignment. I say just pick one for now and later down the road you can experiment with a different one and see how it changes your output.

For enlosure design if you reallly want to extend the lower frequency a bit you can go with a 5CUFT enclosure tuned to 65hz this will yield a 3db down at 55hz with a very sharp rollof under 55. Not the lowest but it should be good for most music and still have the ability to blend a sub into the setup at a later date. sealed at 3 cu ft will bring it to 103hz
thanks bro! thats the kind of input i needed!

brandontw
09-15-2005, 11:03 AM
so i guess i will port it at about 5 cubes. should i put the tweeter in the middle or top?

my next question is about stuctural stability, this thing will be almost as tall as me
(im 6'6") and im worried about it swawing and twisting and stuff....any suggestions?
i think i will make it a triangle, but mabye not.

IamDeMan
09-15-2005, 12:14 PM
so i guess i will port it at about 5 cubes. should i put the tweeter in the middle or top?

my next question is about stuctural stability, this thing will be almost as tall as me
(im 6'6") and im worried about it swawing and twisting and stuff....any suggestions?
i think i will make it a triangle, but mabye not. Well a pyramid will kepp it very sturdy, but I think just making a tall tower, then making a good base to support it would be much easier. Make sure to brace it internally to stop any sway or twist and of course flex.

JimJ
09-15-2005, 12:19 PM
I would put the tweet in the middle...

A tall tower would be the best, although I've seen Voight pipes that are triangular...triangles = strong :)

Go heavy on the internal bracing, like it was mentioned before.

theCybe
09-15-2005, 12:28 PM
A triangle would be stylish, and I'd assume that would reduce the probability of standing waves.

*edit* 6'6? ****, you're taller than me. that's unusual.

thylantyr
09-15-2005, 02:31 PM
Send me email, username at hotmail dot com

I have a collection of pics from cyber on various line array designs, some are
great some are basic, some are one tweeter. You can look at these pics to
get a better idea of what you want.

So.. what do you want from the loudspeaker?

* Budget?
* Why line array ?
* SQ desired?
* SPL desired ?
* Do you have a subwoofer?
* What front end electronics do you have?
* What amps do you have?
* If NSB's order extra so you can do some SQ mods.
etc.

PV Audio
09-15-2005, 03:06 PM
just order 50, only 25 bucks :D

brandontw
09-15-2005, 09:33 PM
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3002/linearray0xk.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/my.php?image=linearray0xk.jpg)

this is what i was thinking for the plan. this is really as big as i want it, but it only gives me 2.7ish cubic feet and its 6.5 feet tall waht could i do with that much volume? seal it? i will have a sub eventually, but i dont want it to be whimpy either

Eugenics
09-15-2005, 09:38 PM
can't wait to see the results

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 11:02 AM
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3002/linearray0xk.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/my.php?image=linearray0xk.jpg)

this is what i was thinking for the plan. this is really as big as i want it, but it only gives me 2.7ish cubic feet and its 6.5 feet tall waht could i do with that much volume? seal it? i will have a sub eventually, but i dont want it to be whimpy either
Seal it. You will enjoy it I'm sure. You won't miss the really low end for now while playing with it. Just don't expect your favorite bass songs to impress you on them:) Then down the road when you do get a sub you will love them that much more :)

My speakers and crossover were ordered just 5 minutes ago BTW. I went with 32 4" and 24 of these tweets http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-030 then 2 Dayton 2-way crossovers (4500).

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 11:26 AM
i can vouch for those tweeters, but you should have made your own crossover. the more you want to get out of a project, the more you need to do it yourself :)

if you want suggestions, PM me.

JimJ
09-16-2005, 11:29 AM
24 tweeters?

:confused:

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 11:39 AM
the other reason why u need your own crossover is because those tweeters need attenuation, they are kinda shrill.

JimJ
09-16-2005, 11:41 AM
I'd rather go with a single good ribbon than twenty four seperate tweets...

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 11:49 AM
I'd rather go with a single good ribbon than twenty four seperate tweets...
x2 amen

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 12:16 PM
I'd rather go with a single good ribbon than twenty four seperate tweets...was worried that this many mids would still drown out the single ribbon. Right now the emphasis is being placed on efficiency, then we shall go from there with other expeiriments. I do plan on attenuating them at a later date with better crossovers and getting an EQ down the line. Right now I just want to get the project off the ground and go from there. I am sure many changes will be made before I am happy with them.

Eugenics
09-16-2005, 12:17 PM
as would i

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 12:31 PM
i can vouch for those tweeters, but you should have made your own crossover. the more you want to get out of a project, the more you need to do it yourself :)

if you want suggestions, PM me.Right now I am eliminating complexity out of the build to get it done. Alterations and tuning can be done later. No offense but you would be the last person I PM for advice in this build.

JimJ
09-16-2005, 01:01 PM
Yeah, go with the textbook Xover just to get 'em built...a reason I don't like them is because of the power losses they tend to have. If you design your own, you can make it more efficient.

thylantyr
09-16-2005, 01:05 PM
There is an NSB/PT2 array in my house with;

10 PT2 per tower.
16 NSB per tower.
4 chambers per tower, 1.5 cu. ft. per chamber
100hz tuning, ~ 6dB peak
Four 6" ports per tower, one per chamber
2 ohm wiring
2.4kw pro amp
+ room gain

Gives me a clean 126dB peak c-weighting SPL when listening to bass guitar on my Jazz DVD, midrange SPL peaked around 122dB, at the listening position.
This is using the Radio Shack cheapy meter. I like loud and clean music and
even 115dB c-weighting is pretty crazy for most people. Usually when people
come over they think it's loud at volume number --> 1 [lol]

There is no subwoofer installed right now to complement the array because the array is not for me, I'm holding it for friend and still tweaking around on it.

The part that amazes me more is -> the power handling, I high pass at 65hz,
LR 8th order, drive the amp to clipping, that's 1200w/ch and the NSB don't smoke. I was able to smoke them on my five NSB test box with the Adcom 200w/ch amp, but not the big array using the 2.4kw pro amp.

There is power in large numbers, like an army of ants :laugh:

Whatever you do, that NSB frame lip is 'teh svck' and you have to make sure
you get the right size hole to ensure a good seal. I had to modify my rabetting tool to get a precision cut so the NSB fits perfect. Then use PE rope caulk to make
a perfect air tight seal. Any air leaks ruins performance.

Also, the front baffle if 3/4" thick or greater chokes the NSB backwave {backwave compression}, it's better to chamfer the holes on the backside to allow the driver to 'breath'. This weakens the front baffle though so pick a driver spacing that you can work with, maybe a 4 3/8" to 4 1/2" c-t-c spacing. I reinforced the routed rear baffle with little blocks so a karate chop won't break the baffle

Even thought some people disagree with NSB SQ, you can make them do amazing things if you pay attention to design details and optimize everything.
The real heart of the system is the planar tweeters, they steal the show, the
NSB's are backing vocals - :laugh:

JimJ
09-16-2005, 01:07 PM
Big amps...bah :D

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 01:15 PM
Right now I am eliminating complexity out of the build to get it done. Alterations and tuning can be done later. No offense but you would be the last person I PM for advice in this build.
none taken, but as i build crossovers as a service and i actually care about detail vs. "getting it done", i would rethink that statement ;)

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 01:25 PM
none taken, but as i build crossovers as a service and i actually care about detail vs. "getting it done", i would rethink that statement ;)
There are many people with more experience on the audio boards than yourself. After the pubics fully grow in and you can control your "caulk" from squirting everywhere, then maybe we'll talk shop. For now Thylantyr seems to have an extensive amount of knowledge in this particuliar alignment so no rethinking is needed.

:)

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 01:30 PM
There are many people with more experience on the audio boards than yourself. After the pubics fully grow in and you can control your "caulk" from squirting everywhere, then maybe we'll talk shop. For now Thylantyr seems to have an extensive amount of knowledge in this particuliar alignment so no rethinking is needed.

:)
learn before you bandwagon is all that I have to say. you have no knowledge of my true designs or abilities, so you should stop talking unless you actually know the person that you are talking to. yes thylantr is VERY, VERY knowledgeable about HA setups as i have talked to him extensively. so "getting it done" isn't really a valid excuse for shunning me.

have a good day ;)

Randy Savage
09-16-2005, 01:32 PM
Right now I am eliminating complexity out of the build to get it done. Alterations and tuning can be done later. No offense but you would be the last person I PM for advice in this build.

PWNT!

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 01:34 PM
yeah very :rolleyes:

Randy Savage
09-16-2005, 01:36 PM
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/images/products/main_caulk.jpg>j00

JimJ
09-16-2005, 01:40 PM
There are many people with more experience on the audio boards than yourself. After the pubics fully grow in and you can control your "caulk" from squirting everywhere, then maybe we'll talk shop. For now Thylantyr seems to have an extensive amount of knowledge in this particuliar alignment so no rethinking is needed.

:)

:clap: :ohsnap:

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 01:45 PM
i guess i'll have to get these towers finished up to show y'all whats up :)

JimJ
09-16-2005, 01:48 PM
Be my guest :)

You post 'em, we'll tell you what's up :D

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 01:49 PM
Be my guest :)

You post 'em, we'll tell you what's up :D
:D

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 02:05 PM
learn before you bandwagon is all that I have to say. you have no knowledge of my true designs or abilities, so you should stop talking unless you actually know the person that you are talking to. yes thylantr is VERY, VERY knowledgeable about HA setups as i have talked to him extensively. so "getting it done" isn't really a valid excuse for shunning me.

have a good day ;)I read more than I talk. Something you should learn to do. From my reading I have learned the following.

1. You are younger than the hair on my balls.
2. Your fist attempts at building enclosures were less than desirable.
3. You have no extensive worklogs with real information in them showcasing your so called expertise.
4. You talk a lot.

I have come to find that individuals your age who talk a lot with no real data to back up what they say, are generally full of BS.

Getting it done is the goal for this project because it is a learning excercise in building this alignment. It is not an exercise in furthering my knowledge of creating Crossover networks. That crossroad will come when the unit is built. Switching out crossovers and adding LPAD isn't a terribly hard thing to do once the unit is built. Picking a point of reference that is easy to incorporate during this initial build is a better solution for this project.

Now excuse me while I jump back on this bandwagon and ride off into the sunset.

PV Audio
09-16-2005, 02:08 PM
I read more than I talk. Something you should learn to do. From my reading I have learned the following.

1. You are younger than the hair on my balls.
2. Your fist attempts at building enclosures were less than desirable.
3. You have no extensive worklogs with real information in them showcasing your so called expertise.
4. You talk a lot.

I have come to find that individuals your age who talk a lot with no real data to back up what they say, are generally full of BS.

Getting it done is the goal for this project because it is a learning excercise in building this alignment. It is not an exercise in furthering my knowledge of creating Crossover networks. That crossroad will come when the unit is built. Switching out crossovers and adding LPAD isn't a terribly hard thing to do once the unit is built. Picking a point of reference that is easy to incorporate during this initial build is a better solution for this project.

Now excuse me while I jump back on this bandwagon and ride off into the sunset.
age can defy knowledge is all that i will say to all of this :)

JimJ
09-16-2005, 02:38 PM
I have come to find that individuals your age who talk a lot with no real data to back up what they say, are generally full of BS.

Hey now, what's "your age" encompass :D

80INCHES
09-16-2005, 02:40 PM
lol

80

squeak9798
09-16-2005, 02:44 PM
age can defy knowledge is all that i will say to all of this :)

Fortunately for us, that's not the case here........

IamDeMan
09-16-2005, 02:48 PM
Hey now, what's "your age" encompass :DThere was 2 parts to that equation. You don't fit into 1 of the parts so that eliminates you from being included :P

thylantyr
09-16-2005, 05:34 PM
The real trick to DIY loudspeakers is to build test boxes or a prototype. This
removes all the mystery. Use cheap wood like particle board.

Material costs to make quality cabinets ain't cheap and it wouldn't be sweet
to blindly design on paper and make a quality finished cabinet not knowing
what it might sound like.

ie,

reference this pic;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/6.jpg

On the right there is a 5 NSB, 2 PT2 ported test box. I spent 1 month doing
listening tests, burning up NSB's, trying it sealed, stuffing it, etc. The idea is to exploit
performance on the test bench before you plan the big monsters.


Make a 1/2 or 1/4 scale version to see if you like it before proceeding. At least
see if there is synergy between a few NSB's and the tweeters you choose,
worse case just make a baffle to mount the drivers to get a crude idea on
where the project might be headed.

brandontw
09-17-2005, 02:45 AM
24 tweeters?

:confused:

No. Only 1 per array, sorry, i have no idea why i wrote 24..i must have been thinking of something else.:eyebrow::crap::(:crazy:

brandontw
09-17-2005, 03:01 AM
My revised plan right now is 2 towers, 16 NSB's per tower, 1 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804 tweeter (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804%20tweeter)
Per tower, and I am undecided on the crossovers as of yet. These seem like a really easy way out though:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-NEW-CERWIN-VEGA-SPEAKER-CROSSOVERS-2-WAY-300-WATT-NR_W0QQitemZ5809539296QQcategoryZ14977QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Each tower will be almost 6.5 feet tall, but I’m not sure of the dimensions yet because i can’t decide whether to go with sealed or ported. I think sealed might be for me if for no other reason than that I don’t want huge 6 cubic foot boxes in my room.

Sketch:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8805/linearray6nb.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=linearray6nb.jpg)


Real life:
http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/8938/linearrays7dj.jpg
:)

Eugenics
09-17-2005, 03:04 AM
dear god, you made those?

JimJ
09-17-2005, 03:04 AM
No, I think that's his plan...

Eugenics
09-17-2005, 03:06 AM
a good photo regardless

brandontw
09-17-2005, 03:08 AM
dear god, you made those?
No, i just happened to find that photo after i decided what i wanted to do and drew it in autocad. That photo looks almost excatly like what i am planning though....creepy.

JimJ
09-17-2005, 03:10 AM
No, i just happened to find that photo after i decided what i wanted to do and drew it in autocad. That photo looks almost excatly like what i am planning though....creepy.

Not creepy, very good :D

Means the design's been tested :)

snb778
09-17-2005, 03:24 AM
thats rediculous....would it work to just use a horn??..much louder response

JimJ
09-17-2005, 03:27 AM
Not always. Even if you manage to get an overall higher output with a horn, the dispersion pattern for the line array is still different.

brandontw
09-17-2005, 05:26 AM
i cant wait to build em! im going to build em' at my dads house scince i live in an apartment and he has a high end harmon kardon processor/reciever and a parasound amp that i intend to use for the first test. Good times - 3500$ worth of stereo stuff hooked up to speakers made with 49cent drivers. hopefully they outperform his B&W speaks at high levels, i might end up building another pair for him.

Eugenics
09-17-2005, 11:48 AM
No, i just happened to find that photo after i decided what i wanted to do and drew it in autocad. That photo looks almost excatly like what i am planning though....creepy.



i was just sitting there like... **** he works quick

brandontw
09-17-2005, 02:12 PM
i was just sitting there like... **** he works quick
i wish LOL

thylantyr
09-17-2005, 03:12 PM
re: The Pic

I think that is a Pyle super tweeter.

On diyaudio.com, one guy like the Pyle and has a pencil eraser mod to make
is sound better. :unsure:

You'd have to search their archives, maybe a NSB + Pyle search.

I'm too lazy to do it :crazy:

If you really want to destroy people, make a matrix array with a high end horn,
a good compression driver and big lense.

ie,

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/misc/Feandil.GIF

Even 1 column is cool. I just drew a few columns for reference.

I consider the tweeter the heart of a good loudspeaker, others disagree. At any rate,
some of those cheap super tweeters just sound nasty and can make your NSB
look bad. If you have a high output, high quality sounding tweeter it will really
make the system as a whole perform better. You can later cone treat the paper
cones on the NSB's to refine the sound and you can also tweak crossover settings
to optimize. It's easier to fix the NSB issues than to fix the single cheap tweeter.

JimJ
09-17-2005, 03:16 PM
http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/wrnch2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lambdaomegalinearray.jpg

http://www.rawacoustics.com/

Oh hells yes.

IamDeMan
09-17-2005, 05:20 PM
http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/wrnch2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lambdaomegalinearray.jpg

http://www.rawacoustics.com/

Oh hells yes.
That does look ****. However that is an expensive project there. Maybe after I experiment with the cheap setup and see what I think, then I'll budget for a better one like that. thats a lot of money in ribbons and those mids aren't exactly cheapies.

JimJ
09-17-2005, 05:23 PM
No, it's not exactly cheap :D

Maybe $2k in parts alone...

brandontw
09-17-2005, 09:57 PM
No, it's not exactly cheap :D

Maybe $2k in parts alone...

i bet its alot more than that. im sure it sounds grand though.

thylantyr
09-19-2005, 12:54 AM
re: the pic

If fountek ribbon, $118.

24 x $118 = $2832

I don't know what midwoofers they are, but even if you assume they are cheap
at $30 each, = > $1000

At least $4k for parts.

/hehe

If you can sacrifice maybe 5 - 15% in SQ, then make a Dayton/PT2 array
like this one and run it active;

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=224281

Driver cost is;

16 PT2 tweeters = $400
16 Dayton 6" midwoofers = $432

Driver cost = $832 {cheaper than $4k + }

Get two proamps and digital crossover and it's ownage.

Plan B, save $400 and use cone treated NSB's ported instead of Dayton, works very nice because
the tweeters are really the secret weapon.

Basically, PT2 SQ is marginally less than those $118 ribbons, 5-15% less on average, but PT2 is a more robust tweeter and can
take major torture without frying.

After months of my line array punishment, I finally blew PT2 fuses after cranking Slayer into major clipping.
I heard stories when people blew the precious 'fountek' ribbon on system turn on transients, you know
those little pops..

PV Audio
09-19-2005, 01:01 AM
******* t thylantr, how do u know so much?

thylantyr
09-19-2005, 12:35 PM
I go to staples.com and press this button.

http://gfx.dvlabs.com/klipmart/campaigns/sta001/images/easybutton_lg_top.gif



This is my audio methodology, take the easy path.
http://www.tallhill.com/products/labrat/spec/labrat_spec_files/RatMazeDestroy.jpg

JimJ
09-19-2005, 12:43 PM
:)

http://www.stat.ucla.edu/~erickson/NEBotFest/P1010007.JPG

Another version of the Straight 8...using Dayton drivers, IIRC.

Next to some killer Fostex full ranges. And a pair of 300b SET's chilling in the background.

Beat_Dominator
09-19-2005, 01:29 PM
Tubes are so lame :(

JimJ
09-19-2005, 01:31 PM
You're so lame.

Beat_Dominator
09-19-2005, 01:34 PM
:) I will slay thee with my mighty solid state gear!

JimJ
09-19-2005, 01:38 PM
:) I will slay thee with my mighty solid state gear!

*draws sword*

Bring it.

Beat_Dominator
09-19-2005, 01:49 PM
....and back to line arrays.

You want to have the tweeter at or near the listining height. If you want to mechanically time-align it, maybe notch the enclosure at the middle and move her back 3-4".

JimJ
09-19-2005, 01:50 PM
What about bending the bottom and top of the array? I've seen that done before, basically trying to make each speaker more on-axis to the listener...increases the build complexity, but could be worth it.

Beat_Dominator
09-19-2005, 01:51 PM
Bah, not worth the effort, individual potentiometers to adjust the attenuation for each speaker would work well enough :crazy:

brandontw
09-22-2005, 11:04 PM
I resurrect thee in the name of lacquer!! What kind should I use if I was to lacquer the cones on my NSB”S Water based? Oil based?

PV Audio
09-22-2005, 11:07 PM
what kind of lacquer? i was under the impression that lacquer is LACQUER based....hence lacquer thinner...

PV Audio
09-22-2005, 11:07 PM
use clear gloss, 2 even coats will suffice

brandontw
09-22-2005, 11:16 PM
what kind of lacquer? i was under the impression that lacquer is LACQUER based....hence lacquer thinner...

hmmm i thought i have seen water based ...but i guess it might have been varnish?

brandontw
09-22-2005, 11:16 PM
use clear gloss, 2 even coats will suffice
THANKS.

PV Audio
09-22-2005, 11:22 PM
yeah lol, lacquer is lacquer. perhaps u are thinking of enamel?

thylantyr
09-23-2005, 02:18 AM
Spray can lacquer, Rustoleum, Deft, etc., $4 a can.

Spray some into a metal container and use a 1" brush to apply it to the paper
cone and dustcap, but not surround. One thin coat, wait until it dries, then do another. 4 coats is good, up to 6. First couple of coats soaks into the paper so
don't worry about it.

The reason for spray can lacquer is because it's already thinned, you don't want
thick coats in one application.

brandontw
09-23-2005, 02:35 AM
cool, what if i get regular laquer, then thin it? sound cheeper

IamDeMan
09-23-2005, 07:47 AM
cool, what if i get regular laquer, then thin it? sound cheeper
Sounds like more work and at $4 a can how much cheaper you want it? :P

PV Audio
09-23-2005, 09:21 AM
i think that he means he gets alot more. it is true actually that a can of lacquer thinner and maybe a quart of lacquer would work. what i did personally was take the lacquer and spray about .5" of it into a dixie cup and lightly put it on with a foam brush. works pretty good. did some tests, and from 2-4 was the best. aft rthat, the differences were minimal.

brandontw
09-23-2005, 10:49 AM
will one can cover all 32 speaks?

IamDeMan
09-23-2005, 10:52 AM
I have like 5 different cans partially full from various projects lol so I should be good. My Speaks came in yesterday, but I was too lazy to get the pics dopne last night. I will get a picture of the lot tonight though. One thing is for sure, when you put 32 in qa box it suddenly gets fuggin heavy :crazy:

PV Audio
09-23-2005, 01:28 PM
just be careful with the lacquer

brandontw
09-24-2005, 03:42 AM
just be careful with the lacquer
will do....i dont want to laquer my surround...thatd' be ghey:(

brandontw
10-05-2005, 02:20 AM
Ok im going to bring this back alive to ask for more advice.

I got all 32 speakers lacquered and I think it went quite well if i do say so myself.

So now i am down to actually building the towers. i dont know what kind of wood to use. i dont really want to use mdf becasue it would look like *** and be really heavy. but i am still on a budget. so i was thinking of using solid pine- .5-.75 inches thick- it is cheap and i think if i stained it sort of dark cherry it might look kinda neet. I know i would have splitting problems. but i suppose i would with any solid wood. ... any other suggestions? would pine sound crappy?

davidfre21
10-05-2005, 02:23 AM
particle board?

Moe Lester
10-05-2005, 02:27 AM
3/4" baltic birch ply

brandontw
10-05-2005, 02:37 AM
particle board?

YICK!!!!



3/4" baltic birch ply

hmmm---ill have to go shopping @ HD soon... do you expect this to be much more than regular pine? what sort of size does it come in?

brandontw
10-05-2005, 02:44 AM
would about 2.6 cubes sealed be good for these towers?

brandontw
10-05-2005, 02:49 AM
http://homedepot.bighammersoftware.com/ProductInfo.aspx?pid=78de73da-0cee-46d3-b872-daf0965303e8
http://homedepot.bighammersoftware.com/ProductInfo.aspx?pid=fc271f7b-b553-4068-bb2d-1883f8cc98c0
here is the wood i was looking at. i would have an 8 inch wide peice on the front and back, and 10's on the sides, and the towers will be 77 inches tall -making about 2.6 cubes total volume.

these would make cutting a bit easier on me too, because i dont have a table saw. Im pretty good with a skill saw, but its never perfect. and the cutting guys at home depot hate their lives i guess cause they dont give a **** how they cut your wood.

IamDeMan
10-05-2005, 07:57 AM
Well, your moving faster than me lol. I am still just staring at all my drivers. In the middle of glassing an enclosure for the car though. BTW I would think 2.6 cuft sealed is plenty. 3DB down will go up to 105Hz according to WISD. A good sub complimenting it will be a must later down the road.

JimJ
10-05-2005, 09:54 AM
3/4" baltic ply is about twice as expensive as MDF for "good on both sides" stock - it was around $45 a sheet here at the local Home Despot/No's.

thylantyr
10-05-2005, 01:33 PM
The front baffle is your problem.

The rest of the box you can do whatever you want.

I have a bad memory and too lazy to read this thread again,

but are you doing 16 NSB per tower right? When you cut a bunch of holes for an

array, the wood is not strong. Particle board would be ultra weak, plywood

would be strongest, and MDF in the middle. You don't need esoteric plywood

for the project really, just make sure that the plywood sheet is flat. Plywood

and hardwoods can be warped so examine the wood closely. Cherry pick

the best sheets. Particle board and MDF is less problematic.

The second issue, if you use 3/4" thick front baffle, the hole you cut will choke

off the NSB air space. Realistically it will work but it's not ideal, SQ may suffer.

I had to chamfer the rear baffle NSB holes which makes the front baffle even

weaker. If you use a 3/8" - 1/2" thick wood with just a hole, this is better if you

don't want to chamfer, but a front baffle that thin would have to be plywood for

best strength. The rest of the box can be whatever you wood you want.

What center to center spacing do you seek? If you spread out the NSB's more you

can make the front baffle alittle stronger.

brandontw
10-05-2005, 08:41 PM
The front baffle is your problem.

The rest of the box you can do whatever you want.

I have a bad memory and too lazy to read this thread again,

but are you doing 16 NSB per tower right? When you cut a bunch of holes for an

array, the wood is not strong. Particle board would be ultra weak, plywood

would be strongest, and MDF in the middle. You don't need esoteric plywood

for the project really, just make sure that the plywood sheet is flat. Plywood

and hardwoods can be warped so examine the wood closely. Cherry pick

the best sheets. Particle board and MDF is less problematic.

The second issue, if you use 3/4" thick front baffle, the hole you cut will choke

off the NSB air space. Realistically it will work but it's not ideal, SQ may suffer.

I had to chamfer the rear baffle NSB holes which makes the front baffle even

weaker. If you use a 3/8" - 1/2" thick wood with just a hole, this is better if you

don't want to chamfer, but a front baffle that thin would have to be plywood for

best strength. The rest of the box can be whatever you wood you want.

What center to center spacing do you seek? If you spread out the NSB's more you

can make the front baffle alittle stronger.
yeah 16 nsb's and 1 tweet,

i really like my pine board idea, but now you bring up the issue of a thick front baffle choking airspace, and a 1 inch baffle would be worse than a 3/4 inch, but i dont want to use crappy looking wood such as mdf or plywood becasue i want it to look nice.
how much would it choke the speaker? it still has breathing room, its not totally sealed off, but not a totally open area. would this really affect it noticably?

how crappy would plywood look on the front? 1/2 inch would be pretty weak too wouldent it? im used to making front baffles thicker, not thinner.:(


P.S. i plan to space the speakers about 5/8 of an inch edge to edge. this still makes my tower almost 6'6":uhoh:

PV Audio
10-06-2005, 12:04 AM
home depot sells this birch plywood that i tried once and it is easily the best "sheet" wood out there for under 50 bucks. note i say 50.....it is expensive.

brandontw
10-06-2005, 12:20 AM
ouch 50 bucks per sheet?

PV Audio
10-06-2005, 12:35 AM
48.99 :veryhapp:

JimJ
10-06-2005, 01:10 AM
I need to check the price of 5/8"'s baltic ply shortly...going to be picking up a few sheets for my living room speakers.

PV Audio
10-06-2005, 01:24 AM
FEW sheets? god **** man, how much wood are u using?

JimJ
10-06-2005, 01:25 AM
One per side :D

Let's just say...these 5/8" cabinets are going to be more well-braced than most 3/4" ones :)

PV Audio
10-06-2005, 01:40 AM
apparently so dang lol

brandontw
10-06-2005, 02:10 AM
im poor

JimJ
10-06-2005, 04:53 AM
im poor

So am I...equipment rich, extremely cash poor :)

I actually have a fair bit in my checking acc't, but 90% of it is earmarked for various things. Half of the payment on my new amp, new 4" drivers, box building materials, parts for the EL84 chassis rebuild, rent...lol.

IamDeMan
10-06-2005, 08:27 AM
this still makes my tower almost 6'6":uhoh:That is good then :) My plan is to take it all the way to 7' in order to get enough volume to tune effectively. I am just using MDF and bracing like a mofo. Our style in the living room is industrial(black, metals, etc), no wood. So I think I can get away with a black textured finish to blend in with our black entertainment center. Then the wife insist I figure out a way to put some kind of grill on front HMMMM. I think she is going to just have to live with seeing the speakers.

brandontw
10-06-2005, 10:41 AM
So am I...equipment rich, extremely cash poor :)

I actually have a fair bit in my checking acc't, but 90% of it is earmarked for various things. Half of the payment on my new amp, new 4" drivers, box building materials, parts for the EL84 chassis rebuild, rent...lol.
im not even equipment rich:( if i ever have extra stuff i sell it to finance the next project.

thylantyr
10-06-2005, 01:17 PM
i really like my pine board idea, but now you bring up the issue of a thick front baffle choking airspace, and a 1 inch baffle would be worse than a 3/4 inch, but i dont want to use crappy looking wood such as mdf or plywood becasue i want it to look nice.

I used crappy looking MDF and plywood in this line array project. The front
baffle is 3/4" MDF painted, the top/bottom/sides/back is standard home depot
3/4" oak plywood, $45 per sheet.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/

If you stain the pine wood - Pine is a soft wood and absorbs stain like a sponge
and you can get inconsistent color distribution. Use a staining conditioner first or at least try the stain on some scraps to understand how it's going to work.

how much would it choke the speaker?
Some people chamfer 6" - 8" drivers on 3/4" wood to make sure there is no
turbulence {backwave compression}. The NSB on 3/4" wood is highly choked off.
Cut a piece of wood and see for yourself. It's like holding your hand on your
mouth trying to breath after you sprinted. /hehe

it still has breathing room, its not totally sealed off, but not a totally open area. would this really affect it noticably?

It will work but what makes the sound system great is paying attention to fine
details. 50 fine details can make it perform better than just slapping it all together. How picky are you on SQ?

1/2 inch would be pretty weak too wouldent it? im used to making front baffles thicker, not thinner.:(

1/2 plywood would work if you do 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 ctc spacing. Problem I see is.
If you plan to rabbet the NSB hole, plywood will give you chip out and make
the front baffle look fugly. To minimize chipout, place some masking tape
over the wood where you will route out the rabbet. If you don't want to rabbet,
then you have to figure out if you need an air tight seal in your project because the NSB frame lip is a PITA to deal with if you don't have the proper tools.
Some people have used a file to chamfer the edge and then used silicone
to seal the driver.

P.S. i plan to space the speakers about 5/8 of an inch edge to edge. this still makes my tower almost 6'6":uhoh:

That will work.

brandontw
10-06-2005, 08:26 PM
I used crappy looking MDF and plywood in this line array project.

yeah and it looks killer..i just wanted to use regular wood this time:crying:

If you stain the pine wood - Pine is a soft wood and absorbs stain like a sponge
and you can get inconsistent color distribution. Use a staining conditioner first or at least try the stain on some scraps to understand how it's going to work.
yeah i understand how stain works on pine..ive done it before...not the best but it often turns out pretty nice.

Some people chamfer 6" - 8" drivers on 3/4" wood to make sure there is no
turbulence {backwave compression}. The NSB on 3/4" wood is highly choked off.
Cut a piece of wood and see for yourself. It's like holding your hand on your
mouth trying to breath after you sprinted. /hehe

if i used 1/2 inch wood on the front, would it provide enough breathing room without chamfering?

1/2 plywood would work if you do 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 ctc spacing. Problem I see is.
If you plan to rabbet the NSB hole, plywood will give you chip out and make
the front baffle look fugly. To minimize chipout, place some masking tape
over the wood where you will route out the rabbet. If you don't want to rabbet,
then you have to figure out if you need an air tight seal in your project because the NSB frame lip is a PITA to deal with if you don't have the proper tools.
Some people have used a file to chamfer the edge and then used silicone
to seal the driver.

i have some 4 inch hole saws that i plan to try to use, yes i know it will pe a PITA and stuff but it is what i have.

How picky are you on SQ?

very picky:( im an audiophile who cant afford the equipment to fit my needs


By the way..thanks for sharing so much knowledge..your a life saver

thylantyr
10-07-2005, 12:03 AM
very picky im an audiophile who cant afford the equipment to fit my needs

There is a different strategy. Save money to what you
really want. My project started 5 years ago - just to get what I want and I only
have 1/2 the tweeters and no mids, but I got ten woofers. By the time I'm ready
to build, the speakers will be rotted :laugh:

Try 1/2" pine baffle without chamfer, what other option do you have unless
you buy more tools ?

brandontw
10-09-2005, 04:25 AM
i have the wood bought, the holes cut now, and ready to be put together, im thinking of routing the inner edge of all of the holes to help with the air breathing. but i already feel that the .5 inch bridge between speaks is already pretty small...would it be worth it?

PV Audio
10-09-2005, 02:13 PM
post pics, routed the rear of the baffle in that thin of wood and screwing into it may or may not be a good idea. pics would only beable to suffice.

thylantyr
10-09-2005, 03:03 PM
post pics .... with two drivers installed {less screws} with a pic of the back ..

fyi, I made blocks of wood to reinforce the weak spots, pics here;

NSB rear chamber;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/16.jpg

Closeup of the reinforcing block, one per driver. The front baffle is very strong with
these, but it requires more work.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/17.jpg

PV Audio
10-09-2005, 03:05 PM
nah i meant brandon, but tight setup :)

brandontw
10-09-2005, 09:42 PM
yeah ill post pics when i go to work on it again (i live in an apartment...so im working on it at my dads house) He has a shopsmith that i forgot about and it has a table saw, drill press, and a bunch of other stuff, so that made using the 4 inch hole saws, and cutting the wood alot easier. S i have more toold than i thought. he has a router and a few bits too, so that will be nice.

thylantyr
10-10-2005, 12:40 AM
I bought a $25 carbide tipped 4" hole saw to cut into 3/4" MDF. It didn't work,
the hole saw struggled and just burnt the MDF. After the first test hole, I gave up.
If you use wood thinner than 3/4" and pine it should be alot easier. But the router
owns to cut holes if you have a jig for the exact hole size.:yumyum:

brandontw
10-10-2005, 01:01 AM
i bought the cheapest used hole saws i could find and used a drill press and i tore through .75 mdf, 1 inch pine, and i even tried it on some oak and it worked pretty good. just used the highest speed i could. it left pretty clean edges too.

thylantyr
10-10-2005, 02:21 AM
I used the recommended 'slow' speed, it didn't work well. The advantage of
a 4" hole is you avoid the NSB frame lip but create air leaks so it will need good
sealing unless you do dipole :offwall:

brandontw
10-10-2005, 02:31 AM
yeah.. there is a space around the frame.. im thinking of using epoxy or something and filling the gaps from the back before i attach the front plate to the rest of the tower( i plan to mount the speakers and wire them before i install the front baffle.)

thylantyr
10-10-2005, 04:07 AM
When I made my test box I use thin weather stripping around the NSB frame
and when the screws were tightened, the foam compressed pretty good making
a decent seal. You can try it because if you don't like the results you can always
remove it without consequence.

brandontw
01-11-2006, 08:23 PM
Hey guys, Im gonna Bring this thread back for one more peice of advice... polyfill or no polyfill?

That will be all, thanks,

-Brandon

PV Audio
01-11-2006, 09:30 PM
polyfill pillows