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View Full Version : Complicated Crossover Speaker Question lol



mega1268
08-23-2005, 03:31 PM
Ok..... so im thinking about doing a 3 way set up on active crossovers.
I wanna run MY XXX mids and CSS 4.5 midranges of my kx800.4 should be more then enough to power both
I wanna run My vifa 1 inch silk tweets of a kx200.2
And my 13w7 is being ran off a kx1200.1

now my question is. Could any 1 give me an estimate of my crossover points.... should the speakers blend.. or should each be between a certain section. I know sub should play like 80hz and down tweets should play 4.5khz and up. And i heard the XXX mids play amazing from down low all the way up to about 1khz. it will play up to 5khz but ill lose resolution. So should the css mids only play between 1khz and 4.5 khz and the xxx only down to 80khz....... Any help would be very greatly appreicated.

OlogyAudio
08-23-2005, 05:04 PM
Ok..... so im thinking about doing a 3 way set up on active crossovers.
I wanna run MY XXX mids and CSS 4.5 midranges of my kx800.4 should be more then enough to power both
I wanna run My vifa 1 inch silk tweets of a kx200.2
And my 13w7 is being ran off a kx1200.1

now my question is. Could any 1 give me an estimate of my crossover points.... should the speakers blend.. or should each be between a certain section. I know sub should play like 80hz and down tweets should play 4.5khz and up. And i heard the XXX mids play amazing from down low all the way up to about 1khz. it will play up to 5khz but ill lose resolution. So should the css mids only play between 1khz and 4.5 khz and the xxx only down to 80khz....... Any help would be very greatly appreicated.

Looks about right to me -- I would play arround with xover points between 200-1khz for the XXX/CSS mid... 200hz would likely image better (depending on c2c) but on the other hand a higher point will make it a lot less likely to end up with a dead css mid... -- and between 3.5khz and 6khz with the CSS/tweeter -- to taste rly... again lower point should image better but higher will strain the tweeter less... I would also put a larger value cap in line with the tweeter -- say 40uF -- helps save tweeters... any sort of 0hz DC offset goes poof -- not to mention amp failure -- if there is an on/off transient by some fluke -- SEVERE amp clipping... ya know all that nasty stuff -- helps keep the tweeter alive

tRiGgEr
08-23-2005, 05:07 PM
The XXX mids will actually perform well down below 80hz. Just a friendly FYI.

squeak9798
08-23-2005, 05:14 PM
Yeah.....I would run the CSS as low as reasonably possible. Keep the XXX more of a dedicated midbass and in the midbass frequencies only, allowing most of the midrange to be covered solely by the CSS. Plus, as Trigger mentioned, you could get away with a lower highpass on the XXX.

Plus it's kinda hard to guess at this stuff as it's partially dependent upon your vehicle and installation locations.

mega1268
08-24-2005, 12:24 AM
can u give me a list of between what and what so i can sorta get an idea..... all 3 speakers are gonna be mounted in the door. as close to each other as possible. I heard this is thebest way. Its going in a 95 mustang GT with the doors sound deadened to hell. if that helps any.

mega1268
08-24-2005, 12:25 AM
i know im gonna have to tweak the freqs here and there but whats a basic setup to start. i know the xxx's play real low and the css i want to handel all midrange as it should.

squeak9798
08-24-2005, 12:29 AM
all 3 speakers are gonna be mounted in the door. as close to each other as possible. I heard this is thebest way.

Meh. If you don't have room for all of them down in the kicks, IMHO the "best way" would be midrange/tweet in the kicks and midbass in the door.

As far as the range. I'd try the XXX mid from ~50 or 60hz up to ~200 or 300hz, CSS ~200hz or 300hz up to ~6khz (if possible), then let the tweet take over from there.

But, again, that is just a general range to get started. From there it'll be mainly tweaking by ear and RTA if you have access to one. If not, then all by ear :D Exact points will again be highly dependent on your install and what works best for your setup in your car. Underlap/overlap of crossover points may or maynot be needed. If you have variable slopes, the slope used will affect the crossover points. Etc etc.

mega1268
08-24-2005, 01:01 AM
can any1 recommend a crossover? it needs to be 4 way that can bandpass 2 channels? my HU has a 3 way electronic crossver. which has 18 db slopes and ccan bandpass a channel. but i would like to do it organized and all on 1 thing id otn wanna have to low pass off the Sub amp mid pass the css with the HU then midpass teh XXX mids...... ya know... is there any crossovers that bandpass 2 channels?

OlogyAudio
08-24-2005, 01:06 AM
Meh. If you don't have room for all of them down in the kicks, IMHO the "best way" would be midrange/tweet in the kicks and midbass in the door.

As far as the range. I'd try the XXX mid from ~50 or 60hz up to ~200 or 300hz, CSS ~200hz or 300hz up to ~6khz (if possible), then let the tweet take over from there.

But, again, that is just a general range to get started. From there it'll be mainly tweaking by ear and RTA if you have access to one. If not, then all by ear :D Exact points will again be highly dependent on your install and what works best for your setup in your car. Underlap/overlap of crossover points may or maynot be needed. If you have variable slopes, the slope used will affect the crossover points. Etc etc.


I'd suggest 60hz as a min -- you can do 50 if the Q of the filter is lower... -- 4th order or higher

6khz that CSS will start beaming a bit -- it is awesome even 60 degrees off axis upto about 2.5khz -- 3.5khz is still reasonable -- 4.5khz is more tweeter friendly... 6khz is very tweeter friendly but if you are too far axis there will be a dip near the xover frequency unless you are pretty close to on axis... -- besides an even power response creates a nice sound stage from even less than ideal locations -- that's my .02 :)

Already told him this -- just letting every1 else know :)

He is putting the XXX touching the mid -- hes lookin at seas MCA15 -- exceptional cheaper 5.5" mid :) -- so 400hz is doable on the xxx lowpass side :) -- this is a place where just playing with it to personal taste is best...

mega1268
08-24-2005, 01:20 AM
is passive the best way to go.... or is there any active Crossover options i have that will bandpass 2 channels. id ont really wanna have to low pass off the crossover then highpass off the amp or vise versa.

OlogyAudio
08-24-2005, 01:41 AM
is passive the best way to go.... or is there any active Crossover options i have that will bandpass 2 channels. id ont really wanna have to low pass off the crossover then highpass off the amp or vise versa.

Well you could add another 2 amp channels -- a nice active xover -- and some eq... that would be better but harder to setup and more expensive...

there is nothing wrong with actively highpassing and passively low passing the same driver... everyone with a passive component set at all that highpasses them to 'block the bass' with the head unit or amp is doing this -- and it works nicely.

All tradeoffs -- money vs simplicity

adam71
08-24-2005, 10:48 AM
I've had my P9 for a while now and I'm still tweaking it from time to time. Mostly with the slopes. Its hard since all music is different. I don't really have access to an RTA and I can't afford my own.

mega1268
08-24-2005, 12:10 PM
sorryw hat excatley is a P9 and a RTA? Thanks lol

Bake
08-24-2005, 01:40 PM
An Audio Control 4XS Should give you all the channels you want.

mega1268
08-24-2005, 02:35 PM
Ok if i get a crossover my HU i bought has 6 volt preouts. Does this even matter anymore cause i think they boost the Voltage anyway off the crossover? Can i get a indash screen now with 2 volt preouts and not be worried? im running 3 amps?

squeak9798
08-24-2005, 04:55 PM
sorryw hat excatley is a P9 and a RTA? Thanks lol

Pioneer P9 is a headunit and processor combo. Decently expensive, but would do everything you need I believe.

RTA is a real time analyzer. Basically plots the frequency response of your vehicle. Very helpful for tuning purposes.

squeak9798
08-24-2005, 04:57 PM
Ok if i get a crossover my HU i bought has 6 volt preouts. Does this even matter anymore cause i think they boost the Voltage anyway off the crossover? Can i get a indash screen now with 2 volt preouts and not be worried? im running 3 amps?

Some crossovers have built in line drivers, others don't. Just depends.

But, beyond that.....there isn't a sonic difference between 6V and 2V. The only thing the higher preout voltage does is allow you to keep your gains down lower, reducing the possibility of hearing noise in your system from the equipment. If you have no noise with 2V, then using 6V isn't going really to help you any.


Tru Technology has a nice 4/5-way crossover with dual bandpass channels. I'd avoid any Audiocontrol that uses those stupid resistors packs instead of pots to adjust the xover frequency. Try tuning by ear with those resistor packs and you'll end up pulling your hair out, because in order to change the crossover point you'd need to build a new pack each time. And if you are essentially "guesstimating" the xover frequency, you can guess how many packs you'd need to build ;) So, IMHO stick with something that uses pots (knobs) or is digital.

squeak9798
08-24-2005, 05:02 PM
6khz that CSS will start beaming a bit -- it is awesome even 60 degrees off axis upto about 2.5khz -- 3.5khz is still reasonable -- 4.5khz is more tweeter friendly... 6khz is very tweeter friendly but if you are too far axis there will be a dip near the xover frequency unless you are pretty close to on axis... -- besides an even power response creates a nice sound stage from even less than ideal locations -- that's my .02 :)


Blah...beaming. Wasn't thinking about that. Was worried more about pushing the xover point up as far as reasonably possible for the tweet & to keep as much midrange being played with the midrange. But, if he does kicks, he should be able to keep them relatively on-axis anyways. Beaming for that small of a driver shouldn't be absolutely horrid @ 6khz I wouldn't think (haven't actually looked at the specs yet).

audiolife
08-24-2005, 05:05 PM
since when is a pot exact? lol

squeak9798
08-24-2005, 05:08 PM
Never said it was exact. Just easier to work with :p: Plus working with exact frequencies isn't as important as the sound of the settings.

OlogyAudio
08-24-2005, 05:20 PM
Blah...beaming. Wasn't thinking about that. Was worried more about pushing the xover point up as far as reasonably possible for the tweet & to keep as much midrange being played with the midrange. But, if he does kicks, he should be able to keep them relatively on-axis anyways. Beaming for that small of a driver shouldn't be absolutely horrid @ 6khz I wouldn't think (haven't actually looked at the specs yet).
It is darn near perfect 60 degrees off axis till 2.5khz :) -- 30 degrees off axis @ ~4khz is -- acceptable...

Even power response does wonders to the sound quality :) makes imaging a breeze -- Granted you get more reflections -- but there are smoother transitions in the time domain between the first and second reflections due to different angles -- as well as phase orientation of the reflected sound waves -- Did I mention I spent quite some time analyzing the car audio environment ? :) -- Don't just be concerned with flat on axis -- it needs to be flat far off axis as well... or produce very little spl off axis (more ideal but not everyone can have planar devices in their cars)

audiolife
08-24-2005, 05:33 PM
Never said it was exact. Just easier to work with :p: Plus working with exact frequencies isn't as important as the sound of the settings.
anything analog can change with the weather

mega1268
08-25-2005, 12:35 AM
yea i lost u guys with that... lol so theres no audible diffrence...... and whats on access and off axis..... and who makes this real time analyzer and this other thing..... and some prices may help.

Bake
08-25-2005, 02:17 PM
Yeah, those resistor packs in Audio Control stuff are a pain in the a$$. Good processors but not the easiest to set up.

squeak9798
08-25-2005, 02:23 PM
and whats on access and off axis.....

On axis = speakers aimed towards you

Off axis = speakers not aimed at you


and who makes this real time analyzer

They are fairly expensive. If you wanted access to one, your best bet would be to check with local shops and see if they have any in the install bay that they'd allow you to use (rent) for a certain period of time.

ngsm13
08-25-2005, 02:41 PM
Loser, you're doing what I was planning on doing...but decided not to do b/c it was too much of a hassle ;)

NG

mega1268
08-25-2005, 03:21 PM
yea but u said u were in love witht he setup you have now....... how will it be without the 4.5. Ology said they get really sloppy after 1khz.

mega1268
08-25-2005, 03:38 PM
o and whats the best position for tweeters? In the door by the other speakers facing the person or flush mounted. Is keeping it close the teh speaker good or will it sound diffrent if i mount it in the A piller.

squeak9798
08-25-2005, 04:04 PM
Unless you are crossing it over very high (6-7khz+), I'd keep it as close to the midrange as possible.