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View Full Version : Time Alignment and crossover networks on the P860



JonJT
08-05-2005, 04:01 PM
On the P860, when the crossover network is set for high/mid/low, does adjusting the time alignment effect all three chanels at once? Or can I adjust the high, mid and low channels independently? I called Pioneer customer service, but everytime I get some rep that doesn't know what he or she is talking about.

djman37
08-05-2005, 04:06 PM
time alignment for each section of a crossover is some pretty major processing. I'd like to know when you find out. Some of the higher altomobile stuff can do amazing things.

adam71
08-05-2005, 04:21 PM
I'd like to know as well seeing how I only used my 860 in standard mode I cannot answer this question.

I know the DEQ-P9 has independent alignment for all 8 channels. But that is a 800 unit by itself.

djman37
08-05-2005, 04:26 PM
what kind of vehicle do ya need this time alignment for? some people delay the front stuff to match phase w/a sub in the rear of an suv or large car.

JAZN
08-05-2005, 04:27 PM
in network mode, u can control the TA for all 3 sources, left and right. u can control the L-high, L-mid, L-low and R-high, R-mid, R-low all independently. for the xovers, u can LP the low, bandpass the mid, and HP the high. adjustable slopes on all xover points.

djman37
08-05-2005, 04:29 PM
dang, that's nice!

adam71
08-05-2005, 04:32 PM
what kind of vehicle do ya need this time alignment for? some people delay the front stuff to match phase w/a sub in the rear of an suv or large car.

I don't need it for all of them but the fact that I have it is a good thing just in case things change in the future. :naughty:

JonJT
08-05-2005, 04:41 PM
I need the time alignment to "move" the soundstage to the correct place. And TA for 6 channels from an HU isn't that big of a deal, I know that the top 2 Eclipse models can do it. ANd yeah, the altomobile Drive series is **** amazing, but WAY out of my price range. Basically, the P860 can do everything I want, save for having a 4 way crossover (I only know of 2 devices that can handle a 4 way on its own, the Audiocontrol 4XS and the Altomobile Drive 30) and infinitly variable frequency points for it's crossover filters. But, at the same time, it will cost me about 350 dollars, half of the Eclipse CD8455 that I was going to buy, and it's a good sounding unit. That 300+ dollars that I saved are going to buy me a 12 disc changer, tweeters and all the mounting hardware, cables, RCA wires, fibreglassing materials and sound deadning. I'm very happy.

JonJT
08-05-2005, 04:43 PM
what kind of vehicle do ya need this time alignment for? some people delay the front stuff to match phase w/a sub in the rear of an suv or large car.
Time alignment and phase are not really the same thing. I don't see y you would need to "match phase" with a woofer that is not playing the same frequencies as you anyway. Being that the lower frequencies have a longer wavelength, they are not going to have their peaks and troughts at the same time and "place" as the higher frequencies comming from the front stage. If you were to look at the car environment on an ossciliscope, you'd see what I mean.

JAZN
08-05-2005, 04:48 PM
a clarion drz9255 can do 4 way.

djman37
08-05-2005, 04:48 PM
Time alignment and phase are not really the same thing. I don't see y you would need to "match phase" with a woofer that is not playing the same frequencies as you anyway. Being that the lower frequencies have a longer wavelength, they are not going to have their peaks and troughts at the same time and "place" as the higher frequencies comming from the front stage. If you were to look at the car environment on an ossciliscope, you'd see what I mean.

my bad on using the term phase. The point was the 'arrival' of the sound as referenced to time. Unleashing 8 channels of TA on someone not familiar can be as bad as a noob making a graphic EQ 'smile'.

ps. wish i had an o-scope at home

JonJT
08-05-2005, 05:14 PM
my bad on using the term phase. The point was the 'arrival' of the sound as referenced to time. Unleashing 8 channels of TA on someone not familiar can be as bad as a noob making a graphic EQ 'smile'.

ps. wish i had an o-scope at home
O, because of path lenght differeces I would guess. ALthough, I've never heard of that myself, especially cause Humans are not that sensative to pathlength differences and imaging on low frequencies and cause most of the low frequency information in our music is not very "complicated". But whatever, I'll just have to wait and see.

Edit: nice post count, I love 427 :D

JonJT
08-05-2005, 05:15 PM
a clarion drz9255 can do 4 way.
Well it should, isn't that HU almost 1000 dollars street price?

djman37
08-05-2005, 05:21 PM
here's a quote from an audio guy much smarter than me. why i used the word phase...

To understand time alignment, you need to understand phase, and phasing relationships between various parts in the audio circuit. Absolute phase means that when the audio signal goes positive, the speaker cone pushes into the listening space. Reversing the speaker wires reverse the phase, and the phase angle becomes 180 degrees rather than absolute zero. If left in reverse phase, the sound will be delayed by 1/2 cycle. This delay can be converted to inches based on frequency and effects the arrival times of sound to the ear. The ear perceives this as depth or distance from the sound emitting object.

theCybe
08-05-2005, 05:45 PM
^ that was helpful!

I didn't know that.

squeak9798
08-05-2005, 05:55 PM
here's a quote from an audio guy much smarter than me. why i used the word phase...

To understand time alignment, you need to understand phase, and phasing relationships between various parts in the audio circuit. Absolute phase means that when the audio signal goes positive, the speaker cone pushes into the listening space. Reversing the speaker wires reverse the phase, and the phase angle becomes 180 degrees rather than absolute zero. If left in reverse phase, the sound will be delayed by 1/2 cycle. This delay can be converted to inches based on frequency and effects the arrival times of sound to the ear. The ear perceives this as depth or distance from the sound emitting object.

Phase alignment and time alignment are two different things. It is possible to have a phase adjustment (like mentioned in the post) cause an effect that's similar to time alignment.....but they are two different things all together. Phase alignment is not time alignment, even though they can both have a similar affect on the sound.

squeak9798
08-05-2005, 05:56 PM
(I only know of 2 devices that can handle a 4 way on its own, the Audiocontrol 4XS and the Altomobile Drive 30)

There's actually quite a few. Tru F-2 will do 4/5 way xover. Alpine H701 aswell.

djman37
08-05-2005, 05:59 PM
I've got an Altomobile Control 16. Up to 100ms for each of the 2 channels.

djman37
08-05-2005, 06:02 PM
Phase alignment and time alignment are two different things. It is possible to have a phase adjustment (like mentioned in the post) cause an effect that's similar to time alignment.....but they are two different things all together. Phase alignment is not time alignment, even though they can both have a similar affect on the sound.

I gotcha, I was sayin' thats where I heard the term 'phase' used as 'time'
True, it is the ears perception so it is the effect of time delay. The whole document was discussing a poor man's way of correcting 2 sets of speakers in a car.

squeak9798
08-05-2005, 06:05 PM
Yeah....it's actually fairly common to reverse the polarity of one midrange to clear up some phase and imaging anamolies. Phase adjustments like that are sort of like a psuedo-time alignment :D

adam71
08-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Well it should, isn't that HU almost 1000 dollars street price?

Not necessarily, my P9 deck by itself has the following adjustments.

-bass
-treble
-balance
-fader

Thats it. Nothing else.

JonJT
08-06-2005, 12:50 PM
here's a quote from an audio guy much smarter than me. why i used the word phase...

To understand time alignment, you need to understand phase, and phasing relationships between various parts in the audio circuit. Absolute phase means that when the audio signal goes positive, the speaker cone pushes into the listening space. Reversing the speaker wires reverse the phase, and the phase angle becomes 180 degrees rather than absolute zero. If left in reverse phase, the sound will be delayed by 1/2 cycle. This delay can be converted to inches based on frequency and effects the arrival times of sound to the ear. The ear perceives this as depth or distance from the sound emitting object.
O, I know, but reading it again has made me realized where you were comming from. :p:

JonJT
08-06-2005, 12:52 PM
There's actually quite a few. Tru F-2 will do 4/5 way xover. Alpine H701 aswell.
But, their all rather expensive, right? I was just gonna use the P860s internal 3 way and then use the midbass's low pass outputs for sub duty. That would probably be cheeper than everything else. Only problem I see there is that any TA I performed on the midbass frequencies wouldn't be true TA, but that shouldn't be a problem anyway.