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Tbird006TheKing
07-30-2005, 07:00 AM
I decided To just fiberglass some 6.5s

Which will be the loudest
Diamond Audio Hex w/ 200 watts
Boston Acoustics Pro 60 w/300-400 watts
Phoenix Gold Elite Ti w/250-300 watts

Which Have good midbass too
I think I'm still going to use a 8" midbass

My main chooses are
The Pro 60s with 300 watts and a 250 watt Morel 8"
or
2 sets of Diamond D661s with 150 watts each

Will it be loud to just have a front stage or all two sets will I notice the rear with my subs (2 Kicker Comp Vr)

Just encase Budget $400-$600

P.S. I don't want Horns :nono:

audiolife
07-30-2005, 07:21 AM
either bostons or avi.

Tbird006TheKing
07-30-2005, 07:24 AM
Do you Think The Boston pros will be able to compare to Hex's with a 8" midbass?
I like the SQ of all of them All I'm thinking about loudness now

audiolife
07-30-2005, 07:45 AM
well in older days the diamonds used to break up at high volumes (talking 5 years ago and not so sure on how well the gains were set) i used to sell diamonds let our installer install them then i used to tune (for those that wanted it). used to do the same at another shop that sold boston and never had 1 problem with any type of breaking up. basically all i did was use an iasca disc and make the system center good with how it was installed.i didnt have an rta or any meter but i can honestly say out of the handfuls of cars i did this for most of the time the bostons at least seemed louder. another company that m akes loud and clean drivers is avi. they are canadian made and are pretty hard to find but can take your head off none the less lol. reason i say horns in a situation like this is (being loud) is its a no contest and people who dont carry horns say they sound bad simply due to the fact they dont carry them .

3.5Max6spd
07-30-2005, 10:56 AM
Those morel sets (hexs and pg elites) dont get that loud, dont let the power ratings fool you- they just use up alot of power to get going

Look into the Rainbow Power CMX set...those are designed for a loud/clean fronstage

OlogyAudio
07-30-2005, 12:51 PM
Well if you want to have fun with an install the DLP7 with a 93dB/w/m efficency will take a 120W sinewave all day long... all week long -- never resting w/o frying your Voice Coil... it is just a tricky install when you have a pair of 7" midbasses on each side :) 200W by car audio rating standards wouldn't be out of the question if you don't ever put your amp into moderate clipping that is...

squeak9798
07-30-2005, 02:16 PM
If you are adding 8" midbass anyways, and loud is your goal.....I'd just slap a pair of horns under the dash with the 8's and be done with it. Output wise; nothing you mentioned would compare.

Haha....nevermind, I didn't see your last sentence when I wrote that :blush:



I agree with audiolife then.....Boston or AVI is your best bet if output with "standard" components is your goal. I still say horns would be better though :p:

OlogyAudio
07-30-2005, 03:03 PM
yea that would be interesting... stick some compression drivers in there :) and figure out a way to assemble a bass horn in your car to get you down to 80-100hz atleast :) -- then let some subs take over haha thatd be a trick...

Tbird006TheKing
07-30-2005, 04:50 PM
If the sensitivity and the dB rule is true than is this right
Boston Pro 350 watts 115dB
Diamond Hex 200 watts 113.5db

If this is true than I can just go cheaper and get just as loud or go with Horns?

Because If a speaker has a SPL of 94dB than It only needs 128 watts to get as loud as the Pros

With horns do the really play down to 700hz and sound good?

audiolife
07-30-2005, 04:59 PM
well if you are talking about components i was talking about cd-1e sets image has out they come with a mid. with 75 watts a side they would gooble up anything i can think of in volume. some people love horns some people hate horns but the thing about them is there is no mechanical distortion and much less distortion thats "notacable" at the cross over points. some say they sound like a megaphone but i never had that problem everyone thought i had regular speakers until i told them....even about half the judges that scored my cars lol. anything mentioned up here should do a **** good job though.

OlogyAudio
07-30-2005, 06:01 PM
A good design + plenty of EQ + horns + great install = nice... 105-113dB/w/m can be managed... more even with some work.... and 50-100 watts of power handling... heh -- tricky though... horns aren't my specialty though :) I'd have to play with them a little more and talk with some people before I can give any real advice... Other than B&C compression drivers sound good :) -- and radians are sensitive as heck...

squeak9798
07-30-2005, 10:22 PM
-- and radians are sensitive as heck...

:up2somet: (my Illusion's use Radian drivers)



Like audiolife said; Horns will slaughter regular components in output, and match or excel beyond them in sound quality (with proper tuning). 700hz may be pushing it unless you have an extremely steep slope. Full bodied horns should be able to handle 800-850hz @ 24db/oct just fine.


If you want to stick with comps; I had the Pro 6.5 set w/ an Eclipse 34230 running them (400w x 2 @ 4ohm), and they got loud enough that your ears would literally pop, and you could hear them from a few blocks away.....you could be about a block away and hear them from inside a building. Didn't sound as good as my horns at those volumes (horns retain their accuracy better).....but when you're that loud, your ears are distorting just as much if not more than the drivers themselves.

OlogyAudio
07-30-2005, 11:56 PM
Throat distortion is a pain though... :) -- get good lenses and its all good though... There are very few horns that sound better in the 100-110dB range (other than the headroom -- which is nice) than conventional speakers though... it is **** near impossible to properly install a horn in a car too...

Active is darn near required for a compression driver setup... take a peak at what is going on with the impedance plot of say.... B&C's top of the line compression driver...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/294-614.pdf

Look at all the various resonant modes... needless to say... the energy storage... isn't too pretty :) -- that would make one UGLY waterfall plot... and I'm all about the finer details of life... Compression drivers just aren't my cup of tea but there is not much that you can do that is louder thats for sure ;)

Tbird006TheKing
07-31-2005, 03:14 AM
If the sensitivity and the dB rule is true than is this right
Boston Pro 350 watts 115dB
Diamond Hex 200 watts 113.5db

If this is true than I can just go cheaper and get just as loud or go with Horns?

Because If a speaker has a SPL of 94dB than It only needs 128 watts to get as loud as the Pros

With horns do the really play down to 700hz and sound good?


Is the Sensitivity/SPL dB rule true?

OlogyAudio
07-31-2005, 03:33 AM
Is the Sensitivity/SPL dB rule true?
10*log(watts)+sensitivity = volume at ref. distance (typ. one meter) from one speaker.... 2x the speakers and power gain 6dB..... -- half space gain 6dB from a point source..... those are the basic rules that almost work...

packerfan
07-31-2005, 03:49 AM
:up2somet: (my Illusion's use Radian drivers)



Like audiolife said; Horns will slaughter regular components in output, and match or excel beyond them in sound quality (with proper tuning). 700hz may be pushing it unless you have an extremely steep slope. Full bodied horns should be able to handle 800-850hz @ 24db/oct just fine.


If you want to stick with comps; I had the Pro 6.5 set w/ an Eclipse 34230 running them (400w x 2 @ 4ohm), and they got loud enough that your ears would literally pop, and you could hear them from a few blocks away.....you could be about a block away and hear them from inside a building. Didn't sound as good as my horns at those volumes (horns retain their accuracy better).....but when you're that loud, your ears are distorting just as much if not more than the drivers themselves.

400wrms to just the regular Pro6.5s? Crazy, sealed in the kicks or free air in the doors?

Savstyle
07-31-2005, 04:06 AM
horns with an 8" midbass would be real nice. But dont forget about dls iridiums(yeah i know i spelled it wrong)

OlogyAudio
07-31-2005, 12:13 PM
horns with an 8" midbass would be real nice. But dont forget about dls iridiums(yeah i know i spelled it wrong)
Don't forget about me ethr... :)

squeak9798
07-31-2005, 02:15 PM
400wrms to just the regular Pro6.5s? Crazy, sealed in the kicks or free air in the doors?

Doors, with those foam baffles.

audiolife
07-31-2005, 03:31 PM
Don't forget about me ethr... :)
you should send out a sample (nothing major and nothing to be kept) to a few people here like squeak , denim and 3.5 max. if its good its good and if they post a review it would help you along with your bizz.

Tbird006TheKing
07-31-2005, 03:45 PM
10*log(watts)+sensitivity = volume at ref. distance (typ. one meter) from one speaker.... 2x the speakers and power gain 6dB..... -- half space gain 6dB from a point source..... those are the basic rules that almost work...

I don't think I get it

So for the Pros 10*400+90= 4090

What about this (Copied From Crutchfield.com)

The chart below illustrates that a few dB in sensitivity can make a big difference:

Speaker...........Sensitivity Rating.........Power Needed To produce a given volume
Speaker A........ 85 dB.......................... 100 watts
Speaker B ........88 dB............................50 watts
Speaker C.........91 dB............................ 25 watts

A speaker with a sensitivity rating that's 3 dB higher than another speaker's
only needs half as much power to deliver the same amount of sound.

noob with an RS
07-31-2005, 03:54 PM
hey reading the above makes me wanna go horns.. how does a DLS iridium woofer with a image dynamics horn sound? with an EQ and crossovers will i be ok? does DLS even sell the woofer seperately?

OlogyAudio
07-31-2005, 04:52 PM
I don't think I get it

So for the Pros 10*400+90= 4090

What about this (Copied From Crutchfield.com)

The chart below illustrates that a few dB in sensitivity can make a big difference:

Speaker...........Sensitivity Rating.........Power Needed To produce a given volume
Speaker A........ 85 dB.......................... 100 watts
Speaker B ........88 dB............................50 watts
Speaker C.........91 dB............................ 25 watts

A speaker with a sensitivity rating that's 3 dB higher than another speaker's
only needs half as much power to deliver the same amount of sound.


type this in google 10*log(400)+90
:)

Hey squeak -- What do you think of the idea of me sending you a sample to pass to all the diffrent mods? :) Possibly one of you will be so flabergasted at how it sounds that you will just buy it -- or alternatively ya can raffle them off or something atleast to cover the costs of the drivers :)

As for the driver you are looking for.... hows the RE XXX sound? :)

Tbird006TheKing
07-31-2005, 08:19 PM
Thankx Ology

OlogyAudio
07-31-2005, 09:49 PM
Thankx Ology
no prob -- google is amazing! :) gotta love it's ability to take over the world...

squeak9798
07-31-2005, 10:33 PM
I don't think I get it

So for the Pros 10*400+90= 4090



You forgot to include the log function in that equation ;)

10*log(400) = 26.02

Yes, you need to bust out the scientific calculator for this ;)

Remember though; sensitivity isn't the end all be all; you need to be sure that 1st the ratings are comparable; i.e. they may have used differing power levels (1w vs. 2.83V [which is 2w on a 4ohm speaker]), different distances (.5m vs. 1m), etc etc. Beyond that; the speakers sensitivity will not be linear as power compression and whatnot sets in.