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Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 12:08 AM
I have a 6x9 stock in the front door, and a 2.5 inch tweeter stock in the dash, I was wondering if I shoudl go with 2 ways since I could mount a 6.5 and 1 inch tweeter where the 6.9 goes, and mount a larger tweeter in the dash?

this is the adapter I made and I'm going to replace the dual mag with some dls but I'm trying to determin if it would be worth the extra cash to go 3-way because I have room for a 2.5 or larger tweeter in the dash.

http://desertrat.servepics.com/SterioInstall/DualMag2.jpg

if need be I can move the speaker over some I still have the template and I can make another adapter. I don't know how good it would sound with the tweeter mounted right next to the speaker in the door, or how much benefit there would be going with larger tweets in the dash.

if this is a bad idea would it be better to go with a 2 way set that uses a larger tweeter?

GSteg
06-24-2005, 04:08 AM
You could go with 3-way if you want, but how **** are you about sound quality? For the most part, I would think you'll be able to get away with a 2-way system. Most people don't even need a 3-way setup. A 2-way system can sound just as good as most 3-ways. There are much more work that involves in a 3-way system that the chances of getting an error is bigger.

What car do you have? 2.5" stock tweeters are awefully big.

T3mpest
06-24-2005, 09:58 AM
You could go with 3-way if you want, but how **** are you about sound quality? For the most part, I would think you'll be able to get away with a 2-way system. Most people don't even need a 3-way setup. A 2-way system can sound just as good as most 3-ways. There are much more work that involves in a 3-way system that the chances of getting an error is bigger.

What car do you have? 2.5" stock tweeters are awefully big.

^he's right. 3 ways are a bit more of a pain in the butt to do and the biggest advantages are for those who are more **** about SQ. Mostly it's because they get better imaging if they invert a mid, but they wish to keep their midbass, which is hurt by the cancellation. 3 ways are only good if everthing is placed in the correct locations which can be difficult to determine, my advice, stick to a 2 way.

Decipha
06-24-2005, 10:07 AM
put your tweets as close as you can to your woofer









how many times do i have to say that???

Decipha
06-24-2005, 10:09 AM
I have a 6x9 stock in the front door, and a 2.5 inch tweeter stock in the dash, I was wondering if I shoudl go with 2 ways since I could mount a 6.5 and 1 inch tweeter where the 6.9 goes, and mount a larger tweeter in the dash?

that would probably *** up your imaging pretty bad... just a thought

squeak9798
06-24-2005, 10:42 AM
Well....even if you went 3-way, you wouldn't want to run two tweeters. You'd have a midbass, a midrange and a tweeter.

In the case of the DLS; the 3-ways are well worth the money. However, I'd take a properly setup 2-way over a poorly setup 3-way any day of the week. And, like everybody else said; 3-ways take a lot more setup and tuning work.

If you are kind of a novice and haven't worked with a lot of speakers and setups yet, or don't have a lot of tuning practice under your belt, I'd probably stick with a 2-way.

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 12:50 PM
yea the DLS has a Mid Tweet and a smaller tweeter, thats why I was looking at that set particularly.

The truck is a Titan and it comes with some real ****** but real big stock tweeters, the hole in the dash is 2.75 inches wide for the tweeter and the grill that pops over it is a bit larger, so if I go with a 2 way I would be making an adapter to fit a smaller DLS 1.1 inch tweeter, probably out of plexy as MDF is way to thick for this location. The tweeters will be mounted in the dash either way (wether a large one or small one) IMO they sound better up here than next to the woofer at the bottom of the door pannel. In most trucks this may not be the case, but I do like them in their stock locations. My windshield as a pretty steepe slope to it unlike many trucks perhaps that is why it works so well. I'm not going to be cutting up my $200 door pannels on my brand new truck, I want my install to be somewhat stealth.


put your tweets as close as you can to your woofer
This was the idea I mentioned, only the larger mid tweete would go in the dash and the smaller one in the door panel. However if I go with 2 ways the tweeter will go in the dash not the door panel, as IMO it sounds better there in my particular vehicle. and the tweeter would be at the bottom of the door.


that would probably *** up your imaging pretty bad... just a thought
Putting the large tweeter in the dash and having the small one close to the woofer would *** up my imaging? Is this opposed to putting the small tweeter in the dash and the woofer in the door with 2 way DLS setup? So a 2 way setup this way would sound much better than a 3 way setup this way?

I'm not wrried about tuning or setting up the 3 way using the crossovers provided that just takes time. But if a 2-way with tweeters in the dash would sound better I will stick with that.

squeak9798
06-24-2005, 12:55 PM
#1, please stop referring to them as the "large tweeter" and "small tweeter"...it's confusing and, frankly, wrong. They are called the midrange and tweeter, respectively.

#2, if you went with the 3-way setup, you'd want the midranges even distances from you, like down in the kicks. You wouldn't really want to put them in the dash.

#3, Where are the stock speakers located at in the dash?

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 01:00 PM
#1, please stop referring to them as the "large tweeter" and "small tweeter"...it's confusing and, frankly, wrong. They are called the midrange and tweeter, respectively.

#2, if you went with the 3-way setup, you'd want the midranges even distances from you, like down in the kicks. You wouldn't really want to put them in the dash.

#3, Where are the stock speakers located at in the dash?

Ok well I was under the impression they were actualy Large tweeters used for the midrange. That is what they are listed at on sites that sell the DLS 2.5 Tweeters seperate. Thats what I wanted to know about setting up the midranges.

The stock tweeters are located on top of the dash pointed towards the windsheild. For some reason they actualy sound good, I have always been told not to put them there but it works in the case of the Titan. The window is steep enough that I cannot possibly stick my head over the dash and look down in the tweeter hole, they are speaced a bit from the bottom of the windsheild also.

So far it sounds like you are recomending I stick with a 2 way? (tweeters are still going in dash with 2-way)

tRiGgEr
06-24-2005, 01:05 PM
Nope a tweeter is a tweeter. And a tweeter can not be used for midrange because it is a "tweeter".

In this case a simple upgrade of the midrange driver in the door and keeping the stock tweets sounds decent.

And placing the tweets in the dash facing up actually has some very good imaging in some vehicles.

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 01:13 PM
Nope a tweeter is a tweeter. And a tweeter can not be used for midrange because it is a "tweeter".

In this case a simple upgrade of the midrange driver in the door and keeping the stock tweets sounds decent.

And placing the tweets in the dash facing up actually has some very good imaging in some vehicles.

I know for a fact I am not keeping the stock tweets, the stock 6x9 are more decent than the tweets and they are 2 ohm Panasonic POS's....but the large stock tweets sound absolutly HORRIBLE, they are made of regular paper and they really totaly just **** straight up. The titan comes with one crappy sterio. I mean it had lots of cool features, Radio Station names are displayed, nice large buttons and knobs, 6 disc in dash cd changer steering wheel controlls. But tee stock mid's are 2 ohm in the door and the unit only puts out about 6-12 watts to them! Theres no pre-outs of course so the whole system has to be removed, even for a simple speaker upgrade where you would want to run them off the HU, however that is definately not MY plan.

http://www.infinitecaraudio.com/cgi-bin/icastore.cgi?user_action=list&category=DLS%3BTweeters
the midrange drivers are listed under tweeters, sorry for the confusion.

squeak9798
06-24-2005, 01:21 PM
If you went 3-way, I'd put the midbass in the doors, the midrange's in the kicks and the tweeters either on the pillars, in the kicks w/ the midrange, or in the stock locations.

tRiGgEr
06-24-2005, 01:26 PM
The stock tweeters are located on top of the dash pointed towards the windsheild. For some reason they actualy sound good


but the large stock tweets sound absolutly HORRIBLE

So witch is it.


http://www.infinitecaraudio.com/cgi...=DLS%3BTweeters

Notice they are listed as midrange speakers. As mentioned stop calling them large tweeters. It is CONFUSING.

So you want to replace them all? I thought the tweets sounded good??? I'm confused...

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 01:56 PM
If you went 3-way, I'd put the midbass in the doors, the midrange's in the kicks and the tweeters either on the pillars, in the kicks w/ the midrange, or in the stock locations.


Installing the midrage in the kicks would be VERY difficult for me on the drivers side. I do not think, it would be worth the extent of fiberglass work that would be need to be done. So I guess I will go with the 2 way setup, thanks.

The tweeters sound good location wise, but the tweeters themselves really ****, it sounded good when I installed (replaced the stock tweeter) with 1 of my dual mag tweeters on the passengers side (sounds about 4 times better than having both stock tweeters lol). (Yes cutting a hole in my door pannels might sound better but I'm not going there I paid too much for this truck to chop it up just for good sound) I did this in my last vehicle though and it did not sound much better if at all and I did not like the look or location durability ( could get smashed when loading the truck full of crap) and looked bad also.

desi_daru
06-24-2005, 03:36 PM
What car do you have? 2.5" stock tweeters are awefully big.

i was also wondering this i breifly looked over the replies and never found a answer 2 the question

audiolife
06-24-2005, 03:48 PM
errr if i i were setting up a system i would go 2 way unless i had a few weeks to tweek and reinstall stuff. factory locations arent to good to begin with then add to it buy fitting in a 3 way simply because you can. i like my 2 way set up now alot more than my 3 way set up and a 2 way horn set up to me is the best. people often have this miscoception that more means better in 90% of those situations ill say 2 way propperly set up as good as it gets. i know ALOT of competitors that "showed" a 3 way type set up but when push came to shove channels became unhooked an they were back to a 2 way lol. the guys that go to the 3 way set ups usually have a ton of expeirence as well as time but even they have to tip their hat to a simple set up. thing is with how soundwaves work its mighty tough to create "REAL" with too much going on. sound waves fight reflect cancel eachother out and in a car it becomes alot moe complex due to glass and interiors. the ultimate set up for a whole car would be a 1 speaker set up that played 20-20k smoothly and could posses a soundstage but i dont see that happening anytime soon lol

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 04:42 PM
i was also wondering this i breifly looked over the replies and never found a answer 2 the question


The truck is a Titan and it comes with some real ****** but real big stock tweeters, the hole in the dash is 2.75 inches wide for the tweeter and the grill that pops over it is a bit larger, so if I go with a 2 way I would be making an adapter to fit a smaller DLS 1.1 inch tweeter, probably out of plexy as MDF is way to thick for this location.

Nissan Titan to be more specific,

Thanks everyone, I went ahead and ordered the DLS Iridium 6.2's instead. Ill jsut suffer with them instead of the 3-way :P

adam71
06-24-2005, 04:42 PM
Mostly it's because they get better imaging if they invert a mid, but they wish to keep their midbass, which is hurt by the cancellation. 3 ways are only good if everthing is placed in the correct locations which can be difficult to determine, my advice, stick to a 2 way.


Actually, in my opinion that is not the main reason why most people go with 3 ways. I have never inverted a mid and don't know anyone that ever has in such a system. The main reason for a 3 way is to divide the midrange and midbass resposibilities between 2 drivers so neither of them has to work hard. Therefore your midrange driver isn't at full excursion while trying to reproduce delicate upper midrange sounds. And finally my favorite advantage of a 3 way is the imporved midbass response without loss of clarity. :D

squeak9798
06-24-2005, 04:44 PM
Installing the midrage in the kicks would be VERY difficult for me on the drivers side. I do not think, it would be worth the extent of fiberglass work that would be need to be done. So I guess I will go with the 2 way setup, thanks.

Yup. Sounds like the best option then.

squeak9798
06-24-2005, 04:46 PM
Actually, in my opinion that is not the main reason why most people go with 3 ways. I have never inverted a mid and don't know anyone that ever has in such a system. The main reason for a 3 way is to divide the midrange and midbass resposibilities between 2 drivers so neither of them has to work hard. Therefore your midrange driver isn't at full excursion while trying to reproduce delicate upper midrange sounds. And finally my favorite advantage of a 3 way is the imporved midbass response without loss of clarity. :D


I believe he meant you invert (reverse) the polarity of one of the mids. This is commonly done in systems to clear up some phasing issues in the midrange area. But, reversing the polarity of one of the mids usually kills the midbass response. So, in a 3-way you can reverse the polarity of one of the mids and still retain your midbass output since it is being played by a completely separate driver.

:)

adam71
06-24-2005, 05:14 PM
I believe he meant you invert (reverse) the polarity of one of the mids. This is commonly done in systems to clear up some phasing issues in the midrange area. But, reversing the polarity of one of the mids usually kills the midbass response. So, in a 3-way you can reverse the polarity of one of the mids and still retain your midbass output since it is being played by a completely separate driver.

:)


Yeah, I know what he meant. I just never had that problem before I guess. But I guess that would be a decent way of combating phasing issues. :)

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 05:26 PM
Actually, in my opinion that is not the main reason why most people go with 3 ways. I have never inverted a mid and don't know anyone that ever has in such a system. The main reason for a 3 way is to divide the midrange and midbass resposibilities between 2 drivers so neither of them has to work hard. Therefore your midrange driver isn't at full excursion while trying to reproduce delicate upper midrange sounds. And finally my favorite advantage of a 3 way is the imporved midbass response without loss of clarity. :D

yea thats what I thought I would be going for, more clarity since each speaker had a smaller is dedicated to a smaller frequency range. Oh well too late now :P

Thanks again for everyones help, I did not know if it would be a good idea or not to mount them like that this will be easier and better I guess. My Wallet thanks you too.

GSteg
06-24-2005, 05:31 PM
A 3-way definitely does have its advantage as t3mpest pointed out.


A lot of time, betting imaging can be achieved through the use of kickpanels. At the same time, a lot of 2-way system in kicks may develop unwanted resonance unless the kicks are deadened to death. This will occur in midbass freq and will tend to drown out the lower midrange a bit, giving you the illusion that clarity is not really clear.

Does not apply to all cars, but will in some. As Audiolife said, if you have time to dedicate with tuning and such, a 3-way may be worth it. But you going with a 2-way setup is definitely not a bad idea. I heard a pair of iridiums 6.2 in a mid 90s mercedes c-class. The door were not deadened, and the tweeters were mounted on the dash, with a slight on-axis base. They definitely sounded great for what they were installed in. Can't really go wrong. :)


Also, a lot of speakers can get you better results when you mount the tweeters far apart from the midrange. back in April, I went to an IASCA show at Image Dynamics and most of the cars there had their midrange in stock door location and the tweeters are least on the dash or the A-pillar. They blended in very well, but then again, most of them were running Seas Lotus reference midranges where they sound more transparent. With that in mind, they are more forgiving in terms of being able to distant the tweeters.

audiolife
06-24-2005, 07:26 PM
i dont care what anyone says the more point sources you have the less clarity you have period. you REALLY need to know your stuff to get widespread point sources to work together propperly. dont base your thought on this as too "maddonna sounds better on these 3 ways than it did on the 2 way" get some actuall test material then set it up propper then go listen to your "madonna" or whatever. i will with 100% conviction say when you do this you will have realized what is really happening as you will notice 100% more clarity and will actually be able to pick apart the who song down to the instrements with ease and probably notice quite a few things in your music of choice that you never noticed before.

adam71
06-24-2005, 08:02 PM
In a mid to large sized vehicle a and all else being equal a properly set up 3 way system OWNS a properly set up 2 way system.

I've noticed in a compact car or short cab truck that there isn't much need for a 3 way so my first statement doesn't apply to all vehicles.

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 08:33 PM
Well maybe I should have got 3 way but I figure with all the recomendations to stick with 2-way, and already spending 2x what I planned to I should be good enough with a 2 way setup. My Truck is not a short cab as there are no short cab Titans, however mine is the shorter of the 2 King Cab and extended cab. I will be running some mids from my old set of components off my HU in the back. I guess I could have done Midbass in kick panel, midrange in dash and tweeters in A-pillars but to thell with it all now it's too late.

GSteg
06-24-2005, 10:11 PM
I personally prefer 2-ways over 3-ways in most applications. The only time I will consider 3-way will be for use with horns (through the advice of winslow) or when I'm **** and need a dedicated midbass driver. Other than that, my car right now is running 2-way

robman69
06-24-2005, 10:27 PM
I have the CDT ES643 with the HEX5000 crossovers in a Scion XB. I have all three speakers mounted in the door but it was way too much for a noob like me to attempt the install. The door panels have been completely rebuilt and a .3 enclosure was created for the 6.5 midbass driver. I am also running JL 6W0 subs in kick panels and the stage front addition with 1" silk DRT26 tweets. The sound is amazing and more than I hoped for but it was very costly to have this done.

Justintoxicated
06-24-2005, 10:49 PM
I think I know enough to build the enclosures for midbass myself but I don't think I'm that picky, I just sealed my door with RAAMAT and Ensolite foam. I didn't plan on getting even the 2 ways, I was jsut going to use some 5 year old dual mag components so I hope these are noticably better then my kenwoods. Ya I know kenwood *****, but these soudn really really clear to me eith the silk tweets, however I have blown the tweeters many times (sterio shop kept installing the amp and changing it to lowpass) Hell the last time they switch my amp to Lowpass and told me not to change ANY settings cause they were tired of fixing it....LOL Soon as I got home I switched it back to HP what a joke...and there is hardly any midbass with them also....So they are not that great thats for sure.

I hope the Iridiums will slaughter them but only time will tell.

I mainly asked the question cause when I removed the stock tweeter I noticed how much space there was and jsut started dreaming about 3 ways :P

audiolife
06-25-2005, 04:01 AM
In a mid to large sized vehicle a and all else being equal a properly set up 3 way system OWNS a properly set up 2 way system.

I've noticed in a compact car or short cab truck that there isn't much need for a 3 way so my first statement doesn't apply to all vehicles.
lol BS!! to get what you claim you need 3 things exact or tuned (processed to be) exact (not easy to do). my smaller 2 way set puts a big hurting on my 3 way set not even close. besides that sub bass AND mid bass are the 2 most often OVER emphisized frequencies people put in their cars (meaning way past natural) . my 5.25 smacks it moves your pant leg and you can feel it on your face....only time i can EVER recall feeling that in real is actually playing a drum and loudly at that. im not saying a 3 way is bad at all but i do question what you are calling propper. read up some on superposistion i know it is theroey but its made up of alot of laws

adam71
06-25-2005, 05:02 AM
lol BS!! to get what you claim you need 3 things exact or tuned (processed to be) exact (not easy to do). my smaller 2 way set puts a big hurting on my 3 way set not even close. besides that sub bass AND mid bass are the 2 most often OVER emphisized frequencies people put in their cars (meaning way past natural) . my 5.25 smacks it moves your pant leg and you can feel it on your face....only time i can EVER recall feeling that in real is actually playing a drum and loudly at that. im not saying a 3 way is bad at all but i do question what you are calling propper. read up some on superposistion i know it is theroey but its made up of alot of laws

I think I kind of got the jist of what you just posted but I'm having a hard time reading when there is NO fvcking punctuation to speak of. I don't know where one sentence ends and another begins.

But anyway, just because you probably know more of the technical aspects than I do doesn't make what I say BS and I don't appreciate that remark, but I'm a big boy and I'll move on.

What does a 5 1/4" driver moving your pant leg have to do with 2 ways and 3 ways.??? I fail to see how that pertains to the discussion. I mean if you turn the volume up far enough a sub will make your hair move but again this means nothing to me. Please explain.

I don't know what laws you're speaking of or what you call a PROPER setup but what I call PROPER is what sounds GOOD to the ear and looks good on an RTA which is how I always have and always will setup my systems. I will admit I don't know much about what causes phase problems or whatever. But I do know how my car sounded with a 2 way and how it now sounds with a 3 way and the sound has improved greatly. My mid and tweet in the kicks are aimed correctly with lots of trial and error.

Well, thats my 2 cents.........hope it wasn't too much BS for you.

P.S. Punctuation is our friend. :cool: :)

adam71
06-25-2005, 05:11 AM
read up some on superposistion i know it is theroey but its made up of alot of laws

Where can I find this reading by the way??

audiolife
06-25-2005, 06:34 AM
i did all this crap 10 years ago (dont mean this to sound like a smarty pants but i also had some VERY good teachers first hand without a doubt at least the best i could have within a 300 mile radious for sure). no im by no means a god but its far better to not jump from the frying pan into the fire. people love to play over sophisticated with their systems its not really needed. guaranteed if you knew me as an individual you wouldnt think what i said was an attack on you in any sorts. the basics of it can be googled (superposition). too me its important that you learn it/read it yourself as to me ranting about it suggests im playing preacher. im not thick headed enough to say there isnt more than 1 way to skin a cat so in YOUR learning you can pick it apart for yourself and take what you want from it and apply it to how you do things. its not a major read (maybe 30 minutes tops) but there is alot of info. over the basics of it it basically talks about how waves work with and against eachother. how this applies to your 3 way set up is unless the 3 things i brought up but didnt name are done you will have a hard time getting the system set up THAT good. EVEN if you did there are still problems with frequancy roll off at the crossover points then incoherant lines of dispersion of the speakers themselves (probably bad wording there but im tired as fook and will make sense when you apply what you already know to what it will be that you are reading.) its basically the reason behind using horns in a way but is transfered over as it still applies to sound waves. btw i hate typing and i hate teaching/telling people what it is to exactly do it makes me feel like im insulting ones right to do their own thing which is what im not really trying to do. im just trying to let people know what it is that they should consider dealing with before they make some of the same mistakes i already made.

audiolife
06-25-2005, 06:42 AM
http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/waveSuperposition/waveSuperposition.html here is a neat little item that umm should illistrate what i mean. just read it and follow along and play with the graph ill try to dig up more about it. autosound 2000 i believe used to have tech notes about it. pretty sure what i read along time ago(94-95ish) came from David Navone.
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html

it can be seen in ways with rocks being dropped into mud puddles to graphs basic concept though is trying to absolutely control cancelations and gains. this effects everything from staging to even tonal charactoristics of the system. having more of anything in a system will effect clarity as no matter what you do it cant wont be perfect. yes there are trade offs back and forth as with anything but i would rather deal with frequancy responses over a incoherant phase/wave mess anyday.


also if i may ask what do you refference your system against?

audiolife
06-25-2005, 11:17 AM
What does a 5 1/4" driver moving your pant leg have to do with 2 ways and 3 ways.??? I fail to see how that pertains to the discussion. I mean if you turn the volume up far enough a sub will make your hair move but again this means nothing to me. Please explain.




why do people go 3 way? to free up cone area for dedicated mid bass more times than not without hurting the true high mid range area. i havent rta'd my set up yet just got the staging down pat, but when you feel the smack generally it means you have a nice warm spot between 125-200 hz. my system doesnt get all that loud either (wasnt designed for it ) the place i learned alot of stuff from (custom audio concepts) used to make cars with the front stage by itself could run flat from (best 20-20k out of a set of coax) 45hz to 20k for the most part. none of which used 3 way set ups. closest to a 3 way set up was a dual 5.25" component set up front and those were playing the same thing (that was the perfect 40 car but when they went to all oz(after the perfect 40 the 5.25" components were pro tech) the only thing that played was a set of 6.5" components set up as a co ax. only sad part about it is lynn looks at me and says "why do you still piddle in car audio......" lol since kirk went into construction they have been alot more home audio oriented. those 2 guys have probably forgot more about car audio than i have ever known. although they will deny that i know better. he had 3 books i would kill for now he cant find them lol . 1 was an autosound 2000 book the other 2 were all marked up books on therums of acoustics (marked up meaning things were highlighted where relivent to a system) the last book was much the same but dealing with thielle-smalls and how to manipulate them many ways.

adam71
06-25-2005, 07:40 PM
Thanx for the reads man. I'll have to read them later since I'm tired from reading your last 3 posts....LOL.

Oh and one more thing.........use some FVCKING punctuation.....j/k. ;)

audiolife
06-25-2005, 08:16 PM
basically all its about is constructive and destructive interfearences the more you have the more problems there will be. drop 2 stones 14" apart into water you will see a clash of waves. take the same two rocks side by side from the same hand at the same time you will see they work stronger together and they dont cancel eachother out....in stereo sound we already have this going on between right and left so we can easily adjust it so cancelations happen past the listeners ears. add more speakers from different locations you just added to how wide or narrow your "clean paths" are going to be if you even get clean paths with the added waves from adding more speakers.

audioholic
06-25-2005, 11:36 PM
Ideally in a stereo situation, you would only use 2 speakers to reproduce the material. But we do not have the technology to produce a speaker that will give us the results we want between 20hz and 20khz. This is the reason for multiple drivers, the only reason. More point sources does add complexity as audiolife is talking about, but its a problem we have to live with. Even most high-end home speaker systems have multiple point sources, their advantagce being the ability to mount the drivers as close as physically possible, and the ability to align the voice coils laterally. In an automobile we usually do not have this luxury, but we do have some relatively crude tools to combat this (like time alignment, phase adjusting, etc). But, we also dont have a symmetrical listening environment in a car. Sound reflections are such a big issue in a car that I doubt all but the most trained ears would notice a point source issue in a properly set up 3-way system, especially in the midbass region.

3-ways really exel over 2-ways in terms of output (ignoring phasing issues mentioned above etc). At lower volume levels yes 2-ways can compete with 3-ways pretty well (some would even argue, better). But the higher you like cranking your volume knob, the more of a difference there will be between the two setups.

The guy above who said he only would consider a 3-way with a horn setup confuses me. I have horns (not currently installed) and have studied them for quite a few years (including the readings of Jason Winslow among others) and I still dont understand that reasoning. One of the big advatages of horns is their ability to extend so much lower than a traditional tweeter, closing the gap between it and the subbass region. This makes finding a driver that will handle that bandwidth aptly more easy. There are a few drivers out now that show that promise actually, such as the extremis, xxx and a few others. Setups using traditional tweeters have a larger freq band to fill which more lends itself to dividing itself between two drivers. If you want to mention Winslow, one of his main reasons for chosing a 3-way over a 2-way (even for hrons) is to allow for the seperation of midbass and midrange for purposes of phase adjustment (as was mentioned above). This is still the same issue with non-horn setups. IOW, if you believe in using a 3-way for horns, you should believe in them for tradition tweeter setups as well. ;)

audioholic
06-25-2005, 11:36 PM
audiolife's posts have always been extremely hard to read. :p: I rarely make it thru an entire one. :D

audiolife
06-26-2005, 04:38 AM
just because i dont care to get all detailed, really makes no difference to me. i already been through it and i tell people where to look. if they care to read so be it if not they keep asking about "problems" when the answer to alot of those problems still exists in the readings they wont want to read because its easier to be told rather than learn it. most of the cars that had 3 ways back in the day as i mentioned sometime ago often unhooked the midbass speakers in a comp. one person in particular was jerry zeigler. (he had an all pioneer odr set up with all image dynamics speakers (horns)in a black honda crx) he even back then had the ability with the odr to tune in or out about anything he wanted but couldnt ever get the kicks and doors to sound right together. very few cars i have heard pulled it off with out a hitch. larry chehsneir (i know im spelling this wrong) pulled it off with his caddy it had some non symetrical speaker placements to offset some of the "confusion" he used usd horns pioneer odr and a host of other speakers. its claim to fame (at least to me) was where he had his sub (passenger side almost up into the kick but on the floor/firewall). i talked to him and jerry quite a bit as they used to judge my car often and we talked about how to compensate back and forth but clarity WAS always an issue. you never want anything clouded or pulling back and forth to not have an exact location (which is what happens when you add speakers) between the 2 of those guys i know they have won at least 4 world championships and jerry was his own installer and larry had probabably without a dout one of the top five installers in the world working on his car (i forget his name but not his face he won a grandmaster world championship in his own right) to me about the only guy i know of that tackles these types of issues and does it extremely well is scott bawalda. his "way" of doing it isnt how shall we say the norm because he basically developed his own scheme and i know he does lectures over it as well. case in point though 99.9% of the people who read through here arent and dont want to go to that extreme but when building a PROPPER set up i think superpositioning should be learned and used as a tool as it will effect the system. as with your horns it follows along those VERY SAME LINES as do the speakers i run.

i just went to ft wayne with a friend of mine and he heard my new set up as well as the last set up with my 3 ways. he knew all my sound comes from up front but absolutely couldnt believe my only speakers were mounted low in the kicks. he kept looking at my dash saying "there is something in there" fact of the matter is there isnt. i then played the seven drum track material from my cd 102 track 6. it travels at the corners past both pillars of my truck it also has a definate center and 2 very definate mid center locations that doesnt "drop" in height as the track flows from left to right (something my 3 way set up couldnt do reguardless of were i put the mid tweet and putting the mid in the door). maybe even better than my horns did. you go adding speakers to that that arent aimed exact and tuned exact it will pull the stage either farther left right up or down. reason it would do this is because its FIGHTING with what is there and also working with what is there at intervals that arent consistant. now tell me what would you rather work with a frequency response problem that is by far easier to remody or a phase shift, time and location problem with still somewhat of a frequency response issue? that really effects clarity as much as a singer singing out of time in a chorus or a drum section playing out of sync with a symphony. most peple want something that they know they can get put in and have a fairly easy time of getting it set up well and adding speakers isnt an easy way to improve a system at all. my first installer took the more is better approach in his comp system. he had 40 (not a typo) mid bass, midrange and tweeter speakers in his reagal with 2 12 or 15" subs (had all 4 subs going before he started tweeking). took him 3 years to get it right and it netted him a third place in usac finals. it sounded really good by that time too but you ever think really how many people are going to want to mess with a set up for literially hundreds and thousands of hours? most people would get pissed if it took more than a day. i know this seems extreme but if you look at it for what it really is and know about how speakers themselves work and how to mess with responses (getting them to play deeper or higher) i think it becomes rather obvious which road to pursue doesnt it? there is how many different cars trucks and suvs out now? all of them are totally different so each one posses its own issues with doing the right set up but can you argue against doing the things that are more easily obtained to get a better or as good of end result? a 3 way speaker set up front stage in an easy open set up on paper 9 times out of ten looks alot better than a 2 way set up but reality says you arent going to be installing the said speaker sets in or on any kind of paper. i sold quiet a few 3 way sets in my day especially in bmw's and benzs and i can about draw a line right down the middle to the satisfaction of the customer ( not that it was bad) vs a 2 way kick panel set up but the end result being worth the cost and time into the actual set up. im also not cutting down on the guys that do get good/great results with going the 3 way route but rather saying its not as simple as most people think. :)

adam71
06-26-2005, 03:04 PM
If I said I had time to read that last post I would be lying. :)

audiolife
06-26-2005, 03:42 PM
and if i said that i thought you knew alot i would be lying as well. back way back when this stuff was fundamental stuff.

audioholic
06-26-2005, 04:17 PM
and if i said that i thought you knew alot i would be lying as well. back way back when this stuff was fundamental stuff.
Don't be an ***. Your posts are exceedingly hard to read, you know it. Frankly, I think you do it on purpose alot.

audiolife
06-26-2005, 04:39 PM
Don't be an ***. Your posts are exceedingly hard to read, you know it. Frankly, I think you do it on purpose alot.
maybe but i will never tell

audioholic
06-26-2005, 05:04 PM
But if you ever do, it will be very long and contain very little punctuation. ;)

Just messin with ya. Just like adam was.

audiolife
06-26-2005, 05:14 PM
all i am trying to do is make sure you guys understand what happens when you do things like add speakers and such. its alot better knowing what happens or what will happen ahead of time so you can plan accordingly. sure tonally and maybe in volume a 3 way will/could be better but in most cases comes at a cost. i run my system attinuated like a mofo all it is is what you see in my sig . when its turned up you cant hear yourself yell nor can you tell where ANY of the speakers are at. when you do this it might not be exactly what you wanted in your system but any system would benefit from having these qualities. things are alot clearer and you can pick out parts of the music study it it tune it shape it ALOT better from that stand point as well. eric stevens taught me some of the points to this first hand

audioholic
06-26-2005, 05:55 PM
3-ways can be basically just as transparent as a 2-way, if done correctly. All those pro SQ competitors can't be wrong.

audiolife
06-26-2005, 06:37 PM
not saying it cant but the actual ones that actually pull it off are less than you might think. alot of the "good" cars only exibit a few of the qualites that the others have. anymore though it isnt that tough to be looked at as a top sq guy. (not insulting the old timers here) but over the last year or 2 the # of cars at the shows are very small. in fact in 97 at 2 national events i had almost as many cars in my class as they had at svr as a total. heck i coulda took my truck to tennesee at the truck jam and won a usac x2 point trophy by default lol. all i can really say is alot of guys that compete try and set the bar higher and or find their nitch. outside of a couple classes in any sq contest there really isnt too much there anymore. outside of class d amps, high x max subs and painted fiberglass VERY little has changed. things were going digital 10 yrs ago , people had walls of subs, horns, 2 way and 3 way speaker sets, center channel speakers... and if you really believe year in and year out that they (the manufacturers) make vast strides in speaker sound reproduction (better speakers and amps) you fall for alot of marketing scams. after all what i say, believe and know doesnt keep masses of people buying new equipment year in and year out thinking each progressive year is the latest and greatest.:)
well i forgot one thing there dts but itll be a cold day in hell for me to go into that lol it wont be by choice. it will be by a forced format change when cds become obsuleeeeeeeete.

adam71
06-26-2005, 06:51 PM
and if i said that i thought you knew alot i would be lying as well. back way back when this stuff was fundamental stuff.

Ouch man, you cut me deep. If I were the sensitive type I'd probably be crying right now but since I'm not............go to hell you bastage....... :D

adam71
06-26-2005, 06:59 PM
well i forgot one thing there dts but itll be a cold day in hell for me to go into that lol it wont be by choice. it will be by a forced format change when cds become obsuleeeeeeeete.

Please explain this...what is dts???

audiolife
06-26-2005, 07:05 PM
digital surround sound its in a dvd format thinking they have it at 5.1 or 7.1. i used to keep up on it then after i listened to it it takes away from what a true natural sound stage is supossed to do. all it is imo is a way to keep the masses buying new things if they wish to listen to music. either buy mp3 or if you want a new alblum buy the dvd lol(its not here yet but i see it coming)

adam71
06-26-2005, 07:17 PM
digital surround sound its in a dvd format thinking they have it at 5.1 or 7.1. i used to keep up on it then after i listened to it it takes away from what a true natural sound stage is supossed to do. all it is imo is a way to keep the masses buying new things if they wish to listen to music. either buy mp3 or if you want a new alblum buy the dvd lol(its not here yet but i see it coming)

I got ya!! I know what DTS is. Personally I do NOT see that day coming. DTS Dvd's have been available for over 5 years now and they haven't made a dent in cd sales yet. In my opinion DTS ***** for music. For the best multi channel music, DVD-Audio "advanced resolution" is FARRR better for this application. Not to mention DVD-Audio also comes with "advanced resolution stereo" which rivals vinyl in my opinon. But like I said cd sales haven't been affected by these formats yet and probably won't because they are a niche format.

adam71
06-26-2005, 07:37 PM
also if i may ask what do you refference your system against?


I guess I must have overlooked this question the other day. :) But I must admit I don't really understand what you're asking.

audiolife
06-26-2005, 07:55 PM
you dont refference your system against anything? like a set of home speakers or anything like that?

squeak9798
06-26-2005, 07:57 PM
I guess I must have overlooked this question the other day. :) But I must admit I don't really understand what you're asking.

He was asking if you have a "reference system". You know, something that sounds the way a stereo "should sound" that you compare your system to in order to determine how well your stereo is setup in terms of tonality, imaging, etc etc.

adam71
06-26-2005, 08:27 PM
I have Denon AVR-3805 receiver and a Denon DVD-3910 universal player. My speakers are Mirage with a Velodyne subwoofer. This is in the basement so its not like I can do A-B comparisons with my car system.

audiolife
06-26-2005, 08:30 PM
shouldnt have to do a b anything. all its for is gaining perspective.

adam71
06-26-2005, 10:22 PM
Oh ok then, well if I had my way my car would sound like my home system so I guess you could say that is my reference system then.

cjjackson85
06-26-2005, 10:24 PM
A 3-way setup would be awesome, just gotta convince the wifey...

audiolife
06-27-2005, 06:06 AM
Oh ok then, well if I had my way my car would sound like my home system so I guess you could say that is my reference system then.
should be a fairly easy experiment if you have extra speakers laying around.