Sound Imaging, the evasive pleasure, how do I catch it?

[MediumTech]

I've had only a few chances to hear a nice sound system that was able to produce what I understand is "imaging", which is the ability of a system to have sound qualities beyond treble, bass, and left/right channels. Kinda like 3D sound.

I'm talking about the sound in which the vocals sound like they are coming from the middle of the windshield, the bongos are somewhere in the other lane, and the drummer is somewhere around the hood ornament.

I understand that speaker placement, speaker quality, especially tweeter quality are all big factors.
I just read that the fine-qualities of the amplifier may have something to do with it.

On amps, I thought all there was to it was; real power RMS, and Total Harmonic Distortion being less than 1%.
Is there more to it?

My signature shows what I have, and what I'm shopping for. Only the front 4) speakers are installed at this moment.

I've been impressed with the front door mounted Hertz ESK-165L's running on the stock head unit, and I understand they will really come to life with the "soon to arrive" Scosche EFX Hyperdrive HD4300, 4ch amp.
I've not been very impressed with the rear door mounted 6.5inch Infinity Kappa 3-way's, but I'm holding on to a little hope that they will become much better with the 4ch amp.

I'm starting to shop around for a head unit. I'm thinking that a head unit with "timing" adjustments may be the ticket?

Advice?

[duanebro]

I don't have the money to get into ta. But I might be able to clarify the term "imaging"

your definition includes something called "sound stage" This is where sounds seem to come from beyond the speakers.

Imaging is all about placement, where every sound has its place, and doesn't move. Like the singer in the windshield.

Both are sq issues, and hard to get right. It is even harder to get both at the same time. ta is pretty much required to get it right. (At least in a car, at home it is much easier)

[MediumTech]

I don't have the money to get into ta. But I might be able to clarify the term "imaging"
your definition includes something called "sound stage" This is where sounds seem to come from beyond the speakers.
Imaging is all about placement, where every sound has its place, and doesn't move. Like the singer in the windshield.
Both are sq issues, and hard to get right. It is even harder to get both at the same time. ta is pretty much required to get it right. (At least in a car, at home it is much easier)

Thanks duanebro.
Thanks for the clarification on "sound stage"
What is ta?

[duanebro]

time alinement <-- I can't spell, so I shortened it.

[06goat]

time alinement <-- I can't spell, so I shortened it.

Time alignment*

Also duanebro I see your local, nice to see some MI guys on the forums tired of all the Cali people. If youd like to get into time alignment you can get a HU with ta for under $200

[duanebro]

used?

BTW: Thanks for the spelling lesson!

[pickup1]

Are you going to expect great soundquality out of that efx amp?

[MediumTech]

Are you going to expect great soundquality out of that efx amp?

I read one report that said it was decent. I'm getting this one for $120 shipped. I'll see how it works, and I can pursue a fancier amp after I research more. I figure it will be kinda cool to check the difference between amps with identical speakers. I figure the amp will be easy to change. I don't want to spend alot on an amp right now because I'm spending money on other parts of the system at the same time. At $120, I figure I'll be able to get much of my money back if I decide to change.
If I'm lucky, I'll be happy with it and I'll be done. ... we'll see.
It will probably take me a week or more to get everything put together.
This is still destined to be the best system I've ever had. It will be like the holy grail for a while.

[Why So Cereal?]

I agree up above, you'll need some T/A to get a good centered sound stage. Sometimes you can play around with flipping phases on the drivers to get a little closer but T/A is really good for tweaking. Since you're in the market for a HU, do it right the first time and get as many features as you can (T/A, active xovers, slope changes, etc) My dad bought my current HU as a gift for me and I love the unit and the "Sonic Center Control" is decent for helping me center my stage, but I cant go active, nor can I run rears with proper processing.

On the note of amps, you dont necessarily have to spend tons to buy top notch but make your dollar stretch by going used on some nice equipment. DIYMA is a great place to look for nice SQ amps. As long as your amp is setup correctly with your speakers, you will be able to do fine with any amp of decent quality. I've seen some SQ cars that run the "Almighty" McIntosh Amps; I've also seen some that run the Polk PA series amps. Big price jump, but both cars were able to place in SQ competition. With SQ, install is everything. So get decent equipment from the jump (especially your HU, this is where I'd spend the most if i had to start over) and get ready to tweak and tweak and tweak until your head hurts. lol

[keep_hope_alive]

You can get a used Alpine CDA-9835 for your budget. Or a CDA-9887. Gives you 6-channel time alignment and front active features. Invest your speaker money on front speakers only, you don't have the budget for rear speakers. Just run factory rears.

T/A is the cheapest way to get a better sound stage. Heavily modifying the vehicle is another.

[MediumTech]

Thanks again guys.

[trumpet]

Imaging is a psychoacoustic effect of picturing something specific in our mind as a result of hearing a sound, like visualizing a snare drum if you hear a recording of a snare hit. Sound staging is directing and focusing certain instruments, vocalists, and so on so we're tricked into believing they're not coming from the speakers. The usual goal for staging is the vocalist centered, guitars on the sides, drums at the rear(this is from depth, which we can get into later).

The quality of the music or source material plays a big role in all of this. Sound quality reference CDs such as the Focal/JM Labs 6-disc set or any of the Alpine Reference discs are great tools.

I wouldn't worry about or expect a big change in imaging based on your choice of amplifier. I have personally heard a change in imaging from switching amplifier brand and class, and others will swear on their career they have heard massive changes from upgrading to high dollar amps. Get what you can afford and buy from an authorized dealer. It's more important to have a good quality head unit and don't cut corners on the installation basics. Set the gain knobs correctly.

I agree with the suggestion of buying an older Alpine head unit with time alignment. The 9835 would be a fine choice. I see you are considering the Eclipse CD7200 MKII. Right now I think that's too much of a head unit for you.

[5.3bowtie]

The alpine 9833 is also another good choice from everything I have read about it. I was able to pick one up off ebay for under $100 and will be installing it shortly.

[keep_hope_alive]

Agreed about the 9833. same as the 9835 but without the biolite display. i have a 9833 in the wifes car. i can easily shift the center image to the middle of the car though she likes it just off center (between gauge cluster and rear view mirror).

Yes, the 7200mkII is a nice piece, but also cumbersome. Alpine is generally easier to use.

[hispls]

You should lurk DIYMA forum. To be done properly in a car will always involve some sort of processor and almost always require some creative mounting of components. Selection of amps and components is way way down on the list of priorities to get it "right".

Throw your rear speakers out entirely unless you plan to play music that is RECORDED in 5.1 surround. What concert have you ever been to where the singer/drummer is behind you, or behind you and in front of you? It will invariably be an accoustic nightmare without carefuly selected source material and really good processing power.